DF made a nice video explaning why Destiny 2 will be running 30fps on PS4 Pro blaming on the Jaguar CPU. Developers also stated that it was impossible reaching 60fps on consoles. They also stated Scorpio will probably have the same problem. Whats the point of that 6tf GPU? 4K/30fps? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYRPzW6YmL8

Well the PS4 Pro is clocked 25% slower than the Xbox Scorpio and it doesn't have the GPU command processor offloading 90% of the API overhead either. So right there the Xbox Scorpio CPU is about 35% faster than the PS4 Pro. As for the GPU, it's essentially a RX480 in terms of TFLOP numbers. I'm sure it will be utilized better so let's assume it comes in at RX580 performance. How many AAA games is the RX580 powering at 4K60fps? Probably not many. Console players are already used to 30fps, so yeah, 4K30 is probably the new target or 60@1080P. As for the Digital Foundry video, they assume that the bottleneck is the processor and not the software running on the processor or just the software itself. Is their configuration the most optimal one? Did they try offloading various tasks to the GPU? Does the API's enabled in DX12 offer better CPU performance than on the PS4 Pro? I don't know the answers to those, but I think they are relevant to determining whether the CPU is truly an issue or not. And the last part and probably most important part, what's the alternative? As I stated, if you go with an off the shelf Ryzen solution, you're significantly increasing the power requirements, cost and you're losing the ability to use the command processor stuff. If you wait for a Ravenridge APU, you're delaying the console a minimum of a year, potentially two and definitely adding to the cost. And honestly you're not even getting that much more performance. The Ryzen 1400 is ~8500 on passmark. The Jaguar at 2.7 is probably around ~7500 (5350*2+25% clockspeed) and that's ignoring the command processor offload. Looking at a BOM for the Xbox one, Microsoft pays $100 for both the CPU and the GPU - the Ryzen 1400 is $170 for just the CPU. Sure they can work a deal with AMD to lower the cost for bulk purchase but I doubt they are getting it anywhere near the jaguar APU. Like I agree that the performance is probably the bare minimum of what's necessary - but I think the jump you'd have to make to the next level of performance would be too costly.

Ryzen was never possible, get over it. It's too late, too few, too many problems. Jaguar is strong enough, and frankly, there's no other option. Even Excavator cores are only marginally faster for more power, and it would be much more difficult to get backwards compatibility 100%, since the cores are fundamentally different. Jaguar is cheap, efficient, maintains compatibility, and available. It was never going to be anything else.

Irony being that the graphics almost always suffer in the end.

Yep. Because console devs are retarded and don't deal in gradients. They will have low quality everything at 20 frames average because they have slapped SSAO on at a 60% performance hit just so they can say some PR b.s like they are 'pushing it to it's limits' because they have not optimised it at all. When they could have cranked everything way ip with ssao off etc.

Sad fact about consoles is.. They getting old fast as PC (especially last years). We can forget about XBOX 360 Times. When console last long 5+ years. Instead of that, we have console evry 2 years, with just fev good promoting exclusives. I think technology progres will killing optimisations in some way. And make programmers losing sense of optimisation their engines. Instead of that they must learn new things all the time. Other problem is that. Console "optimisations" focus more on cut-off effects, than just optimize code i guess. Then actually we have unoptimised titles - even at consoles.

"6 teraflops of performance" means almost nothing without context (brand, architecture) Scorpio is using a Polaris chip. Stock 480 = 5.8 TF Stock 1070 = 7.3 TF On paper, flops: 480 + 25% = 1070 Reality, framerate: 480 + 25% = still ~30% slower than a 1070

If you read between the lines, Scorpio is basically using a Vega derivative, same way as the PS4 Pro using a Polaris derivative. There is no way that Polaris would have been within the thermal envelope they want for the APU, and the rest of the talk about the command processor, the abilities of the SIMD and the memory controller, all point towards a modified Vega. Also you confuse the ability of a fixed platform to drive every single ounce of performance out of that hardware. The Jaguar CPUs don't really look that bad, considering that they will almost not be used at all for draw calls or anything GPU related, and they don't seem to be the "standard" design either. Also this machine has a 384bit bus. In total, I believe it will end up being quite faster than a PC with a 1070.

DF made a nice video explaning why Destiny 2 will be running 30fps on PS4 Pro blaming on the Jaguar CPU. Developers also stated that it was impossible reaching 60fps on consoles. They also stated Scorpio will probably have the same problem. Whats the point of that 6tf GPU? 4K/30fps? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYRPzW6YmL8

The PS4 Pro is quite slower than the Scorpio. Like, slower in every measurable aspect, from memory bandwidth (at least 33% slower), to GPU SIMD count and architecture, to CPU clocks and architecture. Scorpio's render target is running Xbox One games at native 4k with 4k assets at the same frame rate as the Xbox One. It's neither a "30fps" nor a "60fps" console. The eventual games that will come with proper support for it will come with the framerates/resolutions that the developers decide, I don't believe that Microsoft (like SONY), can do too much about it, except giving them proper software support. All and all, this is what the original Xbox One should have been, a monster console with exceptional software. It's a pity that I don't believe that Microsoft can close the exclusive games gap with it, since unlike with the hardware and the OS, they don't seem to take any risks whatsoever with games.

Xbox One failed in RAM type vs PS4. Xbox Scorpio will fail vs PC gaming cutting corners with an OC Jaguar instead of Ryzen. Don't be fooled by marketing: It's a console after all, MS marketing expose it as the second coming of Christ. The only "take home message" for PC gamers after Scorpio arrive: GPU will need more VRAM than 8 GB to perform well with ports.

The PS4 Pro (4.2Tflops) actually performs similarly to a GTX1050ti (2.1Tflops), with the GTX1050ti usually able to offer a higher image quality. So, Tflops isn't comparable between console and PC. It already isn't with AMD vs Nvidia. As for the Forza demo that Digital Foundry saw, they clearly stated that their comparisons vs GTX1070/GTX1080 was questionable because they couldn't run Forza (with rain fx) on PC with cars locked going round the track like a train like Turn10 did for the Scorpio demo. It's because of DF's comparison (along with a single screenshot) that has caused a lot of debate/arguments on youtube. Many people also suggesting that the scorpio is as good as a GTX1080 because only the GTX1080 could maintain 60fps in heavy rain (lol). However, imho what Turn10 did was to turn A.I. off which would've reduced cpu load enough for them to showcase 4k/60. There was no mention of DF being allowed to play Forza on the Scorpio either, so, it was a purely technical showcase. I believe given the same demo to run, the GTX1070 would be able to do it easily. Still, 4k/60 in a driving game is totally do-able on the Scorpio. There are many games like sports, fighting, adventure games etc that I'm sure will be able to run at 4k/60 on Scorpio. Whether it can do this for less restricted games (like open world) is the question we're all waiting to see answered. I also think MS have done really good with how they've tried to eliminate bottlenecks across the whole system. I don't think the gpu is a Vega though, it's something they would've been shouting about by now. The command processor is also inside the Xbox One, but, the Scorpio is more advanced. Finally, Destiny 2 (PS4 Pro could only manage 45fps tops) is a special case because it's a network heavy game that's very taxing for the cpu as it uses P2P connection, rather than dedicated servers. Devs who are willing to pay MS to use their servers won't have such a problem on the Scorpio.

The PS4 Pro (4.2Tflops) actually performs similarly to a GTX1050ti (2.1Tflops), with the GTX1050ti usually able to offer a higher image quality.

:infinity::infinity::infinity::infinity::infinity::infinity::infinity::infinity::infinity::infinity:

This is definitely becoming something that i could end up buying, and not other half arsed jack of all trades mess that the original X1 was. I doubt I will ever give up my PC, but as you get older and busier a console becomes tempting again. Just a pity Sony still have the better exclusives, but I know i can just borrow a PS4 for them. The UHD drive is also a nice bonus.

"Jaguar Evolved 8-core CPU at 2.73GHz, 4MB L2 cache" Makes me sick even looking at it. They should been using Ryzen chip instead. There will be no 60fps gaming on this console.

If you're getting this console for 4K, not sure why the CPU matters that much in the first place? If it were only 1080p, sure i'd say a new processor could do some good, but its meant for 4K or close to 4K. If they had used ryzen instead, the OS and whatnot would likely run better, but your FPS in 4K-ish games would be the same, so what are you on about? Just because these are consoles, does not mean the CPU/GPU bottleneck after 1080p does not exist, let alone after 1440p.

True, why put a more expensive CPU in there that will not be utilised? You can't have a diminishing returns piece of hardware in a console, it's pretty much suicide.

If you're getting this console for 4K, not sure why the CPU matters that much in the first place? If it were only 1080p, sure i'd say a new processor could do some good, but its meant for 4K or close to 4K. If they had used ryzen instead, the OS and whatnot would likely run better, but your FPS in 4K-ish games would be the same, so what are you on about? Just because these are consoles, does not mean the CPU/GPU bottleneck after 1080p does not exist, let alone after 1440p.

Honestly the PS4 and XBox One both already run really well OS wise.

Honestly the PS4 and XBox One both already run really well OS wise.

Oh i'm not saying it should be NEEDED to run better OS wise, its just the only place a better processor at 4K would be beneficial in any way, even though i agree, its not needed. The fact that these systems have 8 cores in the first place, to me anyways, means they have plenty of processing power for anything they will need it to do, especially at 4K. A better, more expensive processor currently would basically just be one company trying to say their product is better because their 4K system has a better processor, when in reality no one would notice the difference. There's only two places these systems, and consoles in general, have always been not the greatest at (when it comes to comparison on PC) GPU: which is understandable with how expensive and hot these things can get And RAM: This one, i have never understood. Xbox 360 had 512mb of total system memory, in a time where 4GB + 256mb and up GPU memory was more then norm. So 512mb of total system memory vs 4.25GB of total system memory PCs, just doesn't make sense and is extremely limiting. Xbox one had 8GB of total system memory, when the norm for PCs were getting to be about 8GB of ram with 2-4GB of GPU ram, so 8GB total vs 10-12GB total, its not as bad as before, though it was quite slow memory.... Xbox scorpio will have 12GB of total memory (with this stating only 9GB used for games), i actually believe this to be just barely enough, at least for now. But on PC anyways, some games have already been touching 8GB of ram, like GTA 5, let alone how much GPU ram. I'm sure GTA 5 if you combine them will probably use more towards 13-16GB of ram, if you let it and have the memory available. Now, the question is, does the game NEED it? I dunno, but it can certainly use it when its available. But even then, 12GB of total system memory when many PCs are now doing 8-16GB of RAM with 4-12GB of GPU ram, so 12-28GB of total system memory....

Oh i'm not saying it should be NEEDED to run better OS wise, its just the only place a better processor at 4K would be beneficial in any way, even though i agree, its not needed. The fact that these systems have 8 cores in the first place, to me anyways, means they have plenty of processing power for anything they will need it to do, especially at 4K. A better, more expensive processor currently would basically just be one company trying to say their product is better because their 4K system has a better processor, when in reality no one would notice the difference. There's only two places these systems, and consoles in general, have always been not the greatest at (when it comes to comparison on PC) GPU: which is understandable with how expensive and hot these things can get And RAM: This one, i have never understood. Xbox 360 had 512mb of total system memory, in a time where 4GB + 256mb and up GPU memory was more then norm. So 512mb of total system memory vs 4.25GB of total system memory PCs, just doesn't make sense and is extremely limiting. Xbox one had 8GB of total system memory, when the norm for PCs were getting to be about 8GB of ram with 2-4GB of GPU ram, so 8GB total vs 10-12GB total, its not as bad as before, though it was quite slow memory.... Xbox scorpio will have 12GB of total memory (with this stating only 9GB used for games), i actually believe this to be just barely enough, at least for now. But on PC anyways, some games have already been touching 8GB of ram, like GTA 5, let alone how much GPU ram. I'm sure GTA 5 if you combine them will probably use more towards 13-16GB of ram, if you let it and have the memory available. Now, the question is, does the game NEED it? I dunno, but it can certainly use it when its available. But even then, 12GB of total system memory when many PCs are now doing 8-16GB of RAM with 4-12GB of GPU ram, so 12-28GB of total system memory....

Generally games don't need a tonne of memory. Alot of games will allocate far more memory than they actually need. You also have to keep in mind that the memory isn't contiguous , the game dev decides how much of the memory will be dedicated to graphics or system memory, a developer could very well allocate 8gb of that memory to graphics and only need 1gb for game logic. the opposite is also true, they could use 6gb for sytem memory and 3gb for graphics memory . Both the original xbox and the xbox 360 had this flexibility aswell. With scorpio it almost doubles the amount of memory available to developers. I think 9gb is plenty of memory especially since its all for a single application. Its almost obscene how much memory games use these days given how little they have advanced graphically and techincally over the past 7 years

At least with pc we can change texture settings to use more or less memory *shrugs*

I don´t understand why people are so worried about consoles specs, they are always going to be weak, specially for guys like us who like to invest in good hardware. Consoles are meant to be cheap and for that they have to use weak hardware. For example, my 1070 cost me 430€ while my PS4 cost 300€... Of course the PS is much weaker... But i don´t care, i have the PS for the exclusives and some indie games and my gaming rig for the other games.

A Scorpio will sit perfectly next to my PC, and i will enjoy gaming that both have to offer, hell, i even dropped £100 on a DK2 oculus and have been enjoying that even though it is not the brand new uptodate top of the range CV1, don't matter, the games, the expereince, and the fun are all that matter, not everybody has to sit with a FPS counter dreading it dropping to 59fps. lol

Yeah I skipped the PS4 Pro but Scorpio I will get.

Hey everyone! Newly registered PC enthousiast here, with subzero knowledge with most of the abbreviations being thrown around! | 😕 :stewpid: Not here to bash anyone's gaming preference into the ground, but when i was reading this article, i was just wondering one single thing; How the **** will this system get upto 4k resolution in 60 FPS? The only thing i can think of is automatically downgrading the quality settings of each game (compared to the PC), since you can't manually adjust those on consoles. Turning off/down any form of shading, tesselation or even antialiasing (which isn't really useful on 4k anyway) will sure give higher FPS. So if one were to compare a Scorpio with a PC, the PC could get higher quality settings and still remain 60FPS (depending on your GPU ofcourse). Just trying to understand how they do it, that's all:3eyes:

Scorpio will be by far the most powerful home console ever designed. With console-specific game optimizations it will probably match the best single GPU performance PC today at 4K resolution. If not it will be very close. Prepare yourself...