Beyond some inherent racism the system of justice in the US is fundamentally flawed. In particular the point of the police is not to find the truth, but to get a conviction. So in the UK the police are not meant to look for a conviction, they are meant to discover the truth and the laws are built around that. In the US they (normally the police) pick someone they think might have done it and then look for a conviction (even if it becomes obvious that person is innocent). So for example the police can lie when questioning to attempt to get a conviction, they can threaten others to basically say what they are told too, or offer them money to *talk* (i.e. bribes). The whole state system is more like a mafia gang then anything. The only defence you have is your defence team, which is something you pay for so if the state is after you then if you've got very deep pockets you'll be able to put up a decent defence, if you are poor (which black people often are) and you can't afford a team you get screwed. Hence poor people end up in jail a lot, and because they are so easy to convict the police will go for them - they see the crime, they find some poor (often black) guy nearby with a criminal record, force a conviction, and move on. Thinking even if he didn't do it, he looks like the sort of guy that might in the future, so get him off the streets. Equally like the mafia the police protect their own. So for example if one policeman seriously assaults someone they don't get convicted they get put on leave. They wait for the fuss to die down, it goes to an internal tribunal which put it down to *something* and they get off with a slap on the wrist and are re-instated but working somewhere else. It takes mobile phone footage, national coverage, and full blown riots before you can get any sort of conviction. At a higher level justice revolves around politics and money - so it's very hard to force a big american company to obey the law because they pay all the politicians (from both sides) lots of money to look out for them, and the politicians appoint the judges. Really the whole system from the ground up needs reform but it's not going to happen because it's designed to keep the rich and powerful safe at the expense of the poor, and it's the rich and powerful that are in charge. The electoral system too - the paying politicians lots of money is because elections have no money cap and the team with the most money generally wins. If they just capped how much you could spend in an election that would change the whole system.

asturur:

I do not want to drag this too long, but in US is a fact that you are more likely to be targeted if you are black, and more likely that a crime done to you goes unpunished if you are black.

Underlying statistics is rather harsh. Most of crimes against black US population is caused by member of same demographics. In other words: Crimes committed by Black people against their own demographics is more likely to be unpunished. (What I would tend to agree is that society does care less about black people. But that's not proven as there are circumstances as lack of evidence/willing witnesses missing in those particular neighborhoods.) Then statistics is even more problematic as there are many more Black to White crimes/murders than white to black. (Issue that 13,5% of population commits more murders against majority population than majority population commits against them.) Which is underlined by criminal rate in populations where black criminal rate is 3 times as high as Hispanic. And 5 times as high as White. And there is statistics that Black person is 2,5 times as likely to be shot by police officer than white. (Including non-white police officers.) Which, if we account for opportunity rate means that White people are being shot by police twice as much as Black people. It is that black people simply put themselves in front of Police Guns 5 times as much.

asturur:

That's it, and if you don't see that the situation is that black people have less opportunities and a non equal treatment as white people, and that there is will for things to stay in this way, the problem is not in how i m good at prove it or write it. Sadly is a fact. There is a widespread racism in that country and a police problem exactly with black people and exactly just because they are black, not because they are criminal. Policeman is not just another job, it represent the law and the state, and cannot afford to have racial bias, while today this racial bias is there and is tangible.

This is not about equal opportunity, right? And this problematic does not force one to be criminal. One can live in poverty and still not do/deal drugs. Perform armed robberies. Or commit other crimes. Sure, there is prejudice. It is natural to be racist. It is evolutionary reaction. But crime is a choice. (Maybe you should look at those statistics.

asturur:

(Police servicemen and women are black too and suppressed criminal can be white too.)

<--- i wish statistics would be better. I'm not talking about new york, but there are some states in which the punishment of a crime committer changes because of his race. Before getting full rage on those things i was skeptical too, after 4 years working with americans and following their news as a side effect of my interaction with them i just seen things that broke me down.

https://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/police-department-officer-demographics-minority-representation.html Not the best in Minneapolis. But apparently, it is OK in many other places. By OK I mean that similar demographic ratio of local population does policing. So, it would be interesting to understand why it does not work there? (Weirdly enough, it seems that most of police leaders there are from Obama's side/Democrats or Black. So where did those guys made mistake which prevented or discouraged minorities to join or stay in police force?)

Fox2232"]As there are not two exactly same people with exactly same body and mind. But moment you put race or color into equation, that's really bad.

[QUOTE="asturur:

I do not agree, when a crime is committed that involves racial hate that crime is worse. Because there should be no tolerance at all for it. zero. There are some things that are inconceivable for us, for which we are ready to outrage and go over the line ( think of someone hurting your dearest people, or think on crimes committed on children) and until racism is on that list of things, we have work to do as a society. You totally understood it differently than what I wrote. I wrote that regardless of race/color, people are not equal as beings since we are unique. But they should be equal in front of law. (And hate crimes are part of law which is OK.) What you wrote is that moment there is Black victim, punishment should be harsher. That is very different from what you rephrased about: "racial hate" and was not present in argument before. (I do not like moving targets.) = = = = Look, I care little about who killed who there. As neither of those people were exactly good. I care about mentality of people who make it bigger problem than it is. Who spin it into something violent and harmful on large scale. All that BLM is really bad for society. Maybe if those people looked at Asians and start to think why they are being killed at 2,5 times smaller rate by police officers than white people even while there is prevalent racism against them... [SPOILER="This is rate:"]https://cdn.theatlantic.com/thumbor/zNVfREYXUQwt9DA6aNJRuyp9bGc=/548x378/filters:format(png)/https://cdn.citylab.com/media/img/posts/2019/08/police_shooting_race/original.png If you taken criminal rate of each population and death rate to police, you would be able to create chart that shows chance to die per encounter with police while committing crime. White death to crime ratio is actually much higher than black.[/SPOILER]

Fox2232:

It is natural to be racist

No. It is not. To clarify: there is only one race "The Human Race". There is nothing natural about bigotry, but everything natural about there being an infinite potential differences between people. Even monozygotic twins are different...

Dribble:

Beyond some inherent racism the system of justice in the US is fundamentally flawed. In particular the point of the police is not to find the truth, but to get a conviction. So in the UK the police are not meant to look for a conviction, they are meant to discover the truth and the laws are built around that. In the US they (normally the police) pick someone they think might have done it and then look for a conviction (even if it becomes obvious that person is innocent). So for example the police can lie when questioning to attempt to get a conviction, they can threaten others to basically say what they are told too, or offer them money to *talk* (i.e. bribes). The whole state system is more like a mafia gang then anything.

It's still possible that you'll get the best public defender team that money can't buy you, so you can beat the peace of sht police and prosecution, and get movie made about you. [youtube=LFLbptkb1eM] Although it's far more likelier that if you're getting railroaded, you'll be going down with a shitty public defender and no movie.

D1stRU3T0R:

Why tf I should be affected because some 'Muricans decided that looting and making chaos is a good remembering of a fallen man.

It's worth pointing out that the looters and vandals are a totally different group of people who are taking advantage of the protests. They couldn't care less about police brutality or Floyd because many of them are anarchists and/or white supremacists. Also, racism is entirely taught. Tribalism is natural, racism isn't.

Fox2232:

I do not want to go all out about politics

Yet that is exactly what you did, in a thread about Call of Duty.

I'm not even gonna touch this subject.

Loobyluggs:

To clarify: there is only one race "The Human Race".

No, there's no such thing. Human, homo sapiens, is a species, not a race. A race is a subjective, artificial subdivision below a species. For humans to be a race, there would need to be other humanoids we could breed with, readily producing fully fertile offspring. Seen any elves? Hahahahahaha!

Kaarme:

No, there's no such thing. Human, homo sapiens, is a species, not a race. A race is a subjective, artificial subdivision below a species.

That's pretty much what he's saying. Other than you not being a fan of his usage of word race, you two are in agreement 🙂

jbscotchman:

I'm not even gonna touch this subject.

Big props 😀

Amaze:

Yet that is exactly what you did, in a thread about Call of Duty.

There is clear difference between politics and ethics.

Loobyluggs:

No. It is not. To clarify: there is only one race "The Human Race". There is nothing natural about bigotry, but everything natural about there being an infinite potential differences between people. Even monozygotic twins are different...

[SPOILER="I'll leave you with this:"]http://sa-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/specieslie40246_n.jpg Science differentiates species with smallest of changes. But then comes social-pseudo-science which throws science into garbage in name of someone not being emotionally hurt. But differences between humans on skin color level are really tiny in comparison to those inside on biological level. Genetic diversity within Africa is bigger than is in rest of the world together. And you would not think that Africans can differ from each other more than native Europeans to native Americans or East Asians. As far as racism goes, you are here and look like you do because people judged each other based on visual similarity for entire existence of each sub species. People want to put humans to some special pedestal, away from animals. But every time humans think themselves as something special, they get proven wrong. In nature, animals will not even try to breed with different species even if they look rather similar. Most likely interaction is fight for territory. And btw, term humankind is being used more often in recent years over mankind because too many flowers felt it was misogynist and people want to evade low level arguments. Hey, but you are free to ignore science and go with comfortable lie for sake of your definition of being good human. But me, I do not care if someone is from different race. I do not judge people for skin color therefore I do not need to persuade myself that all people are same. While I call myself racist (able to recognize differences), I treat people of other races better than you. A: This is an apple. This is an orange. B: No, there is only fruit! This goes down to psychology, science of classification and affects deeply way person thinks. Deprive yourself from ability to define differences and classifying things and you will end up unable to correctly think about connected problematic.[/SPOILER]

Fox2232:

There is clear difference between politics and ethics.

Why did you link to me something from a neocon extreme right-wing supremist site? Why on earth would you wish to be affliated with that?

I can't be only one asking myself what the hell happened to this forum at times.

Just years ago "shithole countries". Just months ago, moaning about China and Iran dealing with their own protests (in less violent ways than the US, BTW). Propping up "freedom and democracy" away from home, iron hand police state on your own turf. Never change, US. Oh, one last thing. Big corporations would never, ever support actual revolutionary movements. They only support what capital can co-opt and integrate. If you buy the corporate posturing about which lives matter, you are oh so lost.

Which protests in Iran were dealt with in a less violent way?? I get why Activison are pushing this forward, Sony has just done the same with an entire lineup it's just a PR thing. It's also might be bad timing to be pushing a militarily themed game.

Amaze:

Yet that is exactly what you did, in a thread about Call of Duty.

Well the thread was about call of duty company postponing exit for current events ongoing in US, mostly linked to what we started to talk about. We went less off topic than the generic intel/amd news. My whole initial point was that while some companies do this saying they do it for a reason, while maybe they do it because of the backlash they get if they don't, it is still good that they do and that they say those things matter. I have admit that the link under the spoiler is sad 🙁 i would totally remove it. Or please do it. I do not want google to pass here and connect this website with that other. Also spoilers do not work from outside forum view and that thing is there visible to everyone.

asturur:

Well the thread was about call of duty company postponing exit for current events ongoing in US, mostly linked to what we started to talk about. We went less off topic than the generic intel/amd news. My whole initial point was that while some companies do this saying they do it for a reason, while maybe they do it because of the backlash they get if they don't, it is still good that they do and that they say those things matter. I have admit that the link under the spoiler is sad 🙁 i would totally remove it. Or please do it. I do not want google to pass here and connect this website with that other. Also spoilers do not work from outside forum view and that thing is there visible to everyone.

Lol, I just googled for that particular image, because it has been flying around for years. What's there is not a lie. And it is not any more unacceptable even if someone used it for questionable purposes. I have changed source to something that triggers people bit less. But understand that this: "I am offended, and can't face/put up/discus/... something is in general quite hurtful to you and anyone involved." I have seen people who are all nice till you touch something they even refuse to discus. And they go all berserk. There is no hope to change someone's mind if even thinking about given problematic is taboo to those who do not like it. I am used to discus anything, even absolutely absurd theories. Just for sake of exploring where they can go and how far they can go. (Like creating rather improbable premise that does not violate known facts in any way. People often can't wrap their heads about it. They want to disagree because it is rather disagreeable, but they come with absurd ways to disagree just because there are no any good ways to prove it is wrong. I am not doing this here.) - - - - Here, I really wanted to discus fact that people turned to violence for no good reason. If anyone wants some borderline absurd cause: It is almost as if someone prepared those rioters/provocateurs and waited for another police to black person death incident. Hell, I was pretty pissed on situation where boy was shot to back because police officer did not realize he does not hear him as guy had earplugs playing music. That was really bad. This time, it was bad man being killed by bad policeman. [SPOILER="Things like this happen all the time. Police makes mistakes, even FBI is brutal."][youtube=HujPlUyTXRY] In this case, it was not any situation where officers were under pressure or could have been afraid for their lives. They tagged and bagged completely different person who did nothing wrong at all. People who want to change root cause of problems need to look for right causes.[/SPOILER] Case in Minnesota is one where someone ends sitting in jail, and that's about it. Nothing will change for real. = = = = [SPOILER="Here is something to lighten thread. I know, off-topic. But this is how things can be changed. Not with violence, but by being smart as nobody wants to listen or negotiate with violent individuals:"][youtube=AMUkfmUu44k] One of best movies I have ever seen. And it is worth re-watching after some time.[/SPOILER]

@Fox2232 dog, you do realize that all jackals look same to you because you are not a jackal who goes WOOHOO when a nice piece of ass jackal runs nearby? you do realize that humans look different to you because if you're living among humans that's the only way for a gene to survive longer than 1-2-3 generations? and the same goes for jackals, penguins and sparrows who are able to recognize different jackals, penguins and sparrows? else bye bye stupid gene who can't recognize their own OTOH you don't need to recognize different penguins, so you don't. penguins do [youtube=ECxwzOmlDAU] EDIT: Ninja edited. 😀 peng vid inserted

Noisiv:

@Fox2232 dog, you do realize that all jackals look same to you because you are not a jackal who goes WOOHOO when a nice piece of ass jackal runs nearby? you do realize that humans look different to you because if you're living among humans that's the only way for a gene to survive longer than 1-2-3 generations? and the same goes for jackals, penguins and sparrows who are able to recognize different jackals, penguins and sparrows? else bye bye stupid gene who can't recognize their own

And that's exactly what racism is. Completely natural. It does not make people hateful. It makes them realize difference. But hateful person is more likely to target someone who they do not identify with.

Fox2232:

And that's exactly what racism is. Completely natural. It does not make people hateful. It makes them realize difference. But hateful person is more likely to target someone who they do not identify with.

I love it when far right arguments on racism converge with the woke far left ones Omnipresent, natural, systemic, unavoidable.

when did we go back to 1990's