and your end-all post hangs on the idea that cost isn't a problem for, well, anyone. Which is a ridiculous notion. Also, not all UHD TVs are smart. Most UHD TVs from the main manufacturers are smart, but again, not all from the main manufacturers are GOOD smart, there are low-end smart UHD TVs that are slow and not reliable. I know this, as i SELL them. I'll only say that in terms of UHD, and smart, it CAN be a good idea to get a TV with smart in it then as, depending on the TV, you can get 4K content. But that'll only last so long And you say my post only stands on cost? My post, specifically related to Roku, stood on ease of use compared to MOST smart TVs, performance compared to MOST smart TVs, and Apps, compared to ALL TVs (except with Roku built into them). Why do i fixate on cost? Obvious, for 150-800 dollars cheaper, and sometimes more, i can get good performing, easy to use and so many more Apps compared to any TV that i could ever want! And what is the main difference, for spending so much less?....I have to have a tiny, tiny box...boohoo..... You keep saying that the TV will do everything the STB will do, but i feel you are not listening at all, so i'm going to ask you a question, a very simple, simple question. Please tell me which TV offers over 2000+ apps on it. Now, they have started releasing TVs with Roku built into it, in which case that actually is a decent idea. However, it's not that great of an idea yet, since there are no 4K TVs I can find with Roku built into it, but it will support 4K when one is released. Point being is, even the highest end samsung or sony or vizio TV with smart in it (not roku) does not do everything a Roku will yet you keep saying they do.

Line by line... -Cost is not a problem if you can afford to buy a television. How you pay for it is nothing to do with me, but if you have a need (not desire) to purchase a television or have content of a certain type that only a television can deliver - then you are buying one. One way or another, you just are. Now then, how you get to that is another matter. Maybe you get store credit, maybe you use a credit card, maybe you have savings (like most do) so when you need to make purchases like this, you got the cash. In any instance, if someone's need is high enough, they will find the money one way or another. Yes, my comment about home insurance is one way people find the money. That's just the way people can be - this is why home insurance is the amount it is. Now then, lets illustrate this issue of 'cost' a little more, because I see only one of a few instances: 1) Someone who doesn't own a television. 2) Someone who owns a television that cannot 'get' the content they want. 3) Someone who owns a television that cannot 'get' the content they want - and cannot afford to buy a new television. If someone doesn't own a television, as they have been using someone elses and are buying their first television, so to speak, then these are the best candidates for a new UHD, SMART, Internet Enabled, voice activated, HDR, web-browsing, H265 teevee. It's the best and they will buy it. If someone owns a television and can't get the content they want, they will upgrade to something that can and be damned the old model. This is why Trade-in deals exist. If someone cannot afford a new teevee, if their need is great enough, they will find the money to buy it. If their need was not great enough, then they will not upgrade - but might buy an STB, but this is a sucker purchase, which I'll get deeper into in a moment. -Roku 1080P, H264 - this is not good enough to be considered in a discussion about new televisions. Sorry - people expect UHD and the full range of colour, not a washed out alternative. 16-235? Srsly? 0-255 or nothing...and HDR. Thank you. -Apps A television with 2,000 apps in it? Tell you what, show me the survey results which show people buy televisions for the quantity of applications it has versus a television with UHD, SMART, Internet Enabled, voice activated, HDR, web-browsing, H265 etc and then we'll talk. People want Netflix, YouTube, BBC iPlayer (giving them everything from BBC, which is extensive), Skype, Facebook and tiny little games for the kiddies to play should anyone have them, or, just dumb stuff to show other people. Show me an app that is 'killer' and I garuntee you it's on a SMART teevee - if it's not, then it isn't worth knowing about or is incredibly niche for certain sectors of the market that therefore do not concern the mass market. Now, if it's your job to sell televisions, one of the leading questions you must be asking people is 'what kind of content do you want?' because if you are asking people how much money they want to spend or have got to spend, then you are asking the wrong question. If someone sells bottled water for a living, they will ask someone if they are thirsty, if not - what's the point? -PVR You didn't cover this but I am. Teevee's have multi-tuners in them, meaning you can record whilst watching another channel. All you need is one of those pen drives you got kicking about in your draw at work from one of the upteenth conferences or meetings you been to, and jam it in the back of tele and *poof* USB3 recording of channels via the onscreen interface. -remote controls Let's get into this. People want one remote control, or one simple voice activated one and another one for complex stuff you use once when you plug the tv in for the first time and then never ever use again because you don't need to. -Tablet synching. People like their tablets. People like being able to watch teevee on their tablets. People really like being at work and whipping out their tablet to set a record time for a programme they forgot about. Yah, people really like that - it couldn't be more posy 'n' cozy. 'What me? What am I doing? - oh, nothing much, just telling my teevee to record something for later...' (stretches and yawns)....'yeah, thats right....got it last week....UHD...H265...voice controlled...Netflix...YouTube...something in a review called it "amazing" or something...' Yah, people really like that last one a lot - being able to control your content from your tablet couldn't be more pimp unless it had a feathered hat and a purple suit. Are you really gonna tell me cost is important when it comes to televisions? Next to a house or a car, they are the biggest thing you can buy and are completely unnecessary. Cost be damned - if you sell televisions for a living, my goodness 'man, you of all people should know this. You sell people something they don't need. They don't need them, yet you sell them and you think for one goddamn minute you are doing them some kind of favour for pushing an inferior product onto them? Sell them the most amazing television you can get your hands on. Good grief...the only question I would ask is whether they know a good builder that can build them an extension to put the teevee in - or whether their children are old enough to move out... /slams mic onto floor and walks off-stage shaking head whilst the feedback is resonating.

-Cost is not a problem if you can afford to buy a television.

This right here, the very first sentence, is where your entire argument falls apart. My current TV is fine, I just want additional functionality. Why the hell would I go out and buy a $1000+ TV to get it? I'm just going to buy a $150 box that has all the same features but implements them better.

This right here, the very first sentence, is where your entire argument falls apart. My current TV is fine, I just want additional functionality. Why the hell would I go out and buy a $1000+ TV to get it? I'm just going to buy a $150 box that has all the same features but implements them better.

a) It was an intentional non sequitur, used to enhance the sucker of the punch. b) See point #2 c) It/they does not/do not have the same features, you are being sold a lie. Unless for some reason you like having 1080P, no HDR, no H265, no 0-255 color space and enjoy being subservient to another manufacturer/provider instead of the source of the content. You can side step all of your issues by upgrading your television. In one swift stroke, it will be a day long remembered.

You points hang on cost. What about people upgrading their teevee to UHD? or just buying a new one, etc etc etc - when they do, having to purchase a STB in addition to a new teevee has no merit or point when the teevee will do everything an STB will do.

For some of us, buying a new TV doesn't solve the issue of needing a STB... Those of us in the US are required to have a STB if we want more than just "basic cable"... Find me a TV that actually has every feature that an STB has. If you can't find one with an MCard slot, your argument fails....

For some of us, buying a new TV doesn't solve the issue of needing a STB... Those of us in the US are required to have a STB if we want more than just "basic cable"... Find me a TV that actually has every feature that an STB has. If you can't find one with an MCard slot, your argument fails....

Not really, as those only apply to the USA, which is only 4% of the global population - so I class that as a niche requirement, much like having a STB that has 2,000 apps - it does not matter to the mass market consumer. Be general, not specific.

a) It was an intentional non sequitur, used to enhance the sucker of the punch. b) See point #2 c) It/they does not/do not have the same features, you are being sold a lie. Unless for some reason you like having 1080P, no HDR, no H265, no 0-255 color space and enjoy being subservient to another manufacturer/provider instead of the source of the content. You cam side step all of your issues by upgrading your television. In one swift stroke, it will be a day long remembered.

The point everyone is making is that we can't all ****ing afford this mythical TV you're talking about. Hell. Link one. Link this dream TV so I know what to ****ing buy because you're the only one who has found the perfect TV.

a) It was an intentional non sequitur, used to enhance the sucker of the punch.

Rofl, what the ****. "You activated my trap card" I remember when I was 12.

b) See point #2 c) It/they does not/do not have the same features, you are being sold a lie. Unless for some reason you like having 1080P, no HDR, no H265, no 0-255 color space and enjoy being subservient to another manufacturer/provider instead of the source of the content. You can side step all of your issues by upgrading your television. In one swift stroke, it will be a day long remembered.

The vast majority of people don't give a **** about any of that. I can't name a single person who isn't into tech that knows what H265, 0-255 color space or HDR is (in reference to TV's). Hell my sister just bought a 4K TV and has been binge watching Narcos @ 1080p because she doesn't notice a difference or cares. Also you can literally make that statement about everything. 670FTW? Enjoy your 4:2:0 4K @ 60Hz peasant. Creative Labs Recon 3D? I scoff at the idea of having to listen to sound at a measly 102db SNR. No. Bottom line is you don't give a **** about that stuff because it's good enough -- just like having an AppleTV is good enough for the vast majority of people. Or are your specs all faked, another trap? It took me like an hour to wipe off the shivers from how nerdy your post was. Seriously, what's up with the end quote in a different font? Also for the record, the Nvidia Shield Console is $200 and supports 0-255, 4K and H265, I can also stream games from my PC to it anywhere on the planet, because I can bring it with me.

The point everyone is making is that we can't all ****ing afford this mythical TV you're talking about. Hell. Link one. Link this dream TV so I know what to ****ing buy because you're the only one who has found the perfect TV.

If you can't afford it, you don't need it - not that televisions are necessary anyway.

Rofl, what the ****. "You activated my trap card" I remember when I was 12. The vast majority of people don't give a **** about any of that. I can't name a single person who isn't into tech that knows what H265, 0-255 color space or HDR is (in reference to TV's). Hell my sister just bought a 4K TV and has been binge watching Narcos @ 1080p because she doesn't notice a difference or cares. Also you can literally make that statement about everything. 670FTW? Enjoy your 4:2:0 4K @ 60Hz peasant. Creative Labs Recon 3D? I scoff at the idea of having to listen to sound at a measly 102db SNR. No. Bottom line is you don't give a **** about that stuff because it's good enough -- just like having an AppleTV is good enough for the vast majority of people. Or are your specs all faked, another trap? It took me like an hour to wipe off the shivers from how nerdy your post was. Seriously, what's up with the end quote in a different font? Also for the record, the Nvidia Shield Console is $200 and supports 0-255, UHD and H265, I can also stream games from my PC to it anywhere on the planet, because I can bring it with me.

I was explaining my sentence construction to someone who decided not to read my comments - nothing more to it than that sir. Naming one person doesn't count, show me a survey otherwise it's just rhetoric. I also seriously doubt no one understands that a bigger number is better. H265 is just that. It's the next level. It's a standard. It's real and is a real feature of televisions, as is HDR. Um, I really don't know what you mean when you say the video card can only output 4:2:0 - that doesn't quite make any sense. If you could elaborate I can discuss it. Just FYI, I buy a new PC every 5-7 years and am track for another 2-4 years until my next upgrade - when that happens, I will be buying whatever suits my needs - but comparing a PC to a television is not really a comparison and am surprised you made it so. If you are trying to make judgements on my state of mind - I don't think that is very learned as you don't know me. And is judgemental? My point(s) is as stated sir: why buy an STB when a television has got it covered, minus cable tv cards for 4% of the populace. For the record - the nvidia sheild is not going to be using 4:4:4, but 4:2:2/0 - now I'm not saying that it can't provide a 4:4:4 signal, just that it will be compressing the image and cannot make a television HDR when the television is not HDR. It wasn't your point, but is worth mentioning - it can't make something into something - it just can't. The thing is, if you care about UHD then just get a UHD SMART television and skip the unnecessary step of buying an unneeded STB. And, it was a paraphrasing of Star Wars, as Franklin Gothic is the font of Star Wars - whenever I mention star wars, that's the font I use sir. So yeah, perhaps I am nerdy, but hey - I figured I was in good company this being a tech forum and so forth 🙂 If I were to paraphrase Star Trek, I'd use Microgramma - but sadly that is not one of the fonts these hallowed forums offer you.

http://i61.tinypic.com/2pq464i.jpg

Just nevermind, this whole discussion is off the charts stupid.

My point(s) is as stated sir: why buy an STB when a television has got it covered, minus cable tv cards for 4% of the populace.

Because a TV costs $1000+ and a STB costs ~$50-200. Not to mention that the STB implements some of that functionality better. I don't really get why I have to repeat that a hundred times. It's not quantum physics, it shouldn't be challenging to understand. I'm sitting here with a TV and I want netflix on it, am I going to spend $1000+ on a new smart TV or am I going to buy a $50 roku? Anyway I'm done, I feel like I'm getting sucked in a blackhole of stupidity. Hopefully I'll get McConaughey powers and prevent myself from having ever posted in this thread.

Just nevermind, this whole discussion is off the charts stupid.

Agreed. STB's are pointless when televisions give you everything and more, as they control the image and giving control to something else is as you've described it.

Not really, as those only apply to the USA, which is only 4% of the global population - so I class that as a niche requirement, much like having a STB that has 2,000 apps - it does not matter to the mass market consumer. Be general, not specific.

You claim that you can buy TV's with every feature that an STB has, and more. If there isn't a TV available with an MCard slot, your statement fails. Doesn't matter if it's a "niche requirement" or not. It's still a lacking feature found in STBs.... Also, most of those "smart TV's", do what everyone has bitched about with Windows10.... They send user data back to the manufacturer. So, if privacy is a concern, you're better off with a $50 Roku and a "basic" TV. Unless you consider that further invasion of privacy to be a "feature".....

Line by line... -Cost is not a problem if you can afford to buy a television. How you pay for it is nothing to do with me, but if you have a need (not desire) to purchase a television or have content of a certain type that only a television can deliver - then you are buying one. One way or another, you just are. Now then, how you get to that is another matter. Maybe you get store credit, maybe you use a credit card, maybe you have savings (like most do) so when you need to make purchases like this, you got the cash. In any instance, if someone's need is high enough, they will find the money one way or another. Yes, my comment about home insurance is one way people find the money. That's just the way people can be - this is why home insurance is the amount it is. Now then, lets illustrate this issue of 'cost' a little more, because I see only one of a few instances: 1) Someone who doesn't own a television. 2) Someone who owns a television that cannot 'get' the content they want. 3) Someone who owns a television that cannot 'get' the content they want - and cannot afford to buy a new television. If someone doesn't own a television, as they have been using someone elses and are buying their first television, so to speak, then these are the best candidates for a new UHD, SMART, Internet Enabled, voice activated, HDR, web-browsing, H265 teevee. It's the best and they will buy it. If someone owns a television and can't get the content they want, they will upgrade to something that can and be damned the old model. This is why Trade-in deals exist. If someone cannot afford a new teevee, if their need is great enough, they will find the money to buy it. If their need was not great enough, then they will not upgrade - but might buy an STB, but this is a sucker purchase, which I'll get deeper into in a moment. -Roku 1080P, H264 - this is not good enough to be considered in a discussion about new televisions. Sorry - people expect UHD and the full range of colour, not a washed out alternative. 16-235? Srsly? 0-255 or nothing...and HDR. Thank you. -Apps A television with 2,000 apps in it? Tell you what, show me the survey results which show people buy televisions for the quantity of applications it has versus a television with UHD, SMART, Internet Enabled, voice activated, HDR, web-browsing, H265 etc and then we'll talk. People want Netflix, YouTube, BBC iPlayer (giving them everything from BBC, which is extensive), Skype, Facebook and tiny little games for the kiddies to play should anyone have them, or, just dumb stuff to show other people. Show me an app that is 'killer' and I garuntee you it's on a SMART teevee - if it's not, then it isn't worth knowing about or is incredibly niche for certain sectors of the market that therefore do not concern the mass market. Now, if it's your job to sell televisions, one of the leading questions you must be asking people is 'what kind of content do you want?' because if you are asking people how much money they want to spend or have got to spend, then you are asking the wrong question. If someone sells bottled water for a living, they will ask someone if they are thirsty, if not - what's the point? -PVR You didn't cover this but I am. Teevee's have multi-tuners in them, meaning you can record whilst watching another channel. All you need is one of those pen drives you got kicking about in your draw at work from one of the upteenth conferences or meetings you been to, and jam it in the back of tele and *poof* USB3 recording of channels via the onscreen interface. -remote controls Let's get into this. People want one remote control, or one simple voice activated one and another one for complex stuff you use once when you plug the tv in for the first time and then never ever use again because you don't need to. -Tablet synching. People like their tablets. People like being able to watch teevee on their tablets. People really like being at work and whipping out their tablet to set a record time for a programme they forgot about. Yah, people really like that - it couldn't be more posy 'n' cozy. 'What me? What am I doing? - oh, nothing much, just telling my teevee to record something for later...' (stretches and yawns)....'yeah, thats right....got it last week....UHD...H265...voice controlled...Netflix...YouTube...something in a review called it "amazing" or something...' Yah, people really like that last one a lot - being able to control your content from your tablet couldn't be more pimp unless it had a feathered hat and a purple suit. Are you really gonna tell me cost is important when it comes to televisions? Next to a house or a car, they are the biggest thing you can buy and are completely unnecessary. Cost be damned - if you sell televisions for a living, my goodness 'man, you of all people should know this. You sell people something they don't need. They don't need them, yet you sell them and you think for one goddamn minute you are doing them some kind of favour for pushing an inferior product onto them? Sell them the most amazing television you can get your hands on. Good grief...the only question I would ask is whether they know a good builder that can build them an extension to put the teevee in - or whether their children are old enough to move out... /slams mic onto floor and walks off-stage shaking head whilst the feedback is resonating.

Lol dude, you're so delusional that this "conversation" is pointless.

Not really, as those only apply to the USA, which is only 4% of the global population - so I class that as a niche requirement, much like having a STB that has 2,000 apps - it does not matter to the mass market consumer. Be general, not specific.

Again, LOL, 4%, sure that's a population percentage, but completely pointless number when it comes to TV sales The US (in 2013, as my brief search for data can't find data for 2014 and US specifically) there were 34 million units, worldwide in 2013 there were 220 million units, which means the "small" 4% USA population accounted for quite a bit of TVs for how "small" the USA is right? I mean, 4% accounted for 15.5% of GLOBAL TVs. But hey continue to go on your idea that the US only accounts for a small number of people who actually USE and have ACCESS to Smart TVs. Way to pull random and completely useless information out of nowhere. BTW, just so you know how much i LOVE your amazing knowledge and logic!....You say a high end TV can do anything a STB can do, so why not get the TV? Yet, when you're told with ANY SMART TV CAN NOT DO (except Roku TVs, and even then they are limited compared to the STB version of it)- such as 2000+ Apps, you just go and say "oh, well, that doesn't matter, because, well... uh...it doesn't because i'm right you're wrong, smart TVs still do everything a STB can do" Yes, your amazing knowledge and logic is far superior to mine and, seemingly everyone else here. What you state is obviously fact even when proven wrong. Thank you, have a nice day.

You claim that you can buy TV's with every feature that an STB has, and more. If there isn't a TV available with an MCard slot, your statement fails. Doesn't matter if it's a "niche requirement" or not. It's still a lacking feature found in STBs.... Also, most of those "smart TV's", do what everyone has bitched about with Windows10.... They send user data back to the manufacturer. So, if privacy is a concern, you're better off with a $50 Roku and a "basic" TV. Unless you consider that further invasion of privacy to be a "feature".....

"Still lacking a feature found in STB's...which only apply to one country for those people that actually use it" Another way of looking at it is, you can't buy those types of STB's and cards and have any use for them in any other country. That makes it niche. Sorry, it does not make my point null and void unless we are only talking about one country and that country being the one that has that use and applicability. I'm talking about products which apply to all users, which is what the Apple TV is designed for. Not against your point regarding user data, and I never have been - but that's a bigger and different discussion, dontchathink? 1080P is deader than disco, if you've buying a UHD teevee right now, you ain't buying "basic"; you're buying SMART.

Lol dude, you're so delusional that this "conversation" is pointless. Again, LOL, 4%, sure that's a population percentage, but completely pointless number when it comes to TV sales The US (in 2013, as my brief search for data can't find data for 2014 and US specifically) there were 34 million units, worldwide in 2013 there were 220 million units, which means the "small" 4% USA population accounted for quite a bit of TVs for how "small" the USA is right? I mean, 4% accounted for 15.5% of GLOBAL TVs. But hey continue to go on your idea that the US only accounts for a small number of people who actually USE and have ACCESS to Smart TVs. Way to pull random and completely useless information out of nowhere. BTW, just so you know how much I LOVE your amazing knowledge and logic!....You say a high end TV can do anything a STB can do, so why not get the TV? Yet, when you're told with ANY SMART TV CAN NOT DO (except Roku TVs, and even then they are limited compared to the STB version of it)- such as 2000+ Apps, you just go and say "oh, well, that doesn't matter, because, well... uh...it doesn't because I'm right you're wrong, smart TVs still do everything a STB can do" Yes, your amazing knowledge and logic is far superior to mine and, seemingly everyone else here. What you state is obviously fact even when proven wrong. Thank you, have a nice day.

Citation(s) please. If you don't like my logic, then please give me an alternative. That's not sarcasm, that's an invitation. When people walk into a teevee store, they are not looking for a television with the most apps, so to argue they do is wrong. As stated, if there is a 'killer app' (for which I named the most popular) then the app exists on a teevee. Now, that's not me poo-pooing apps, that's breaking it down in real terms. People want to know about the best apps, not all apps.

Lol dude, you're so delusional that this "conversation" is pointless. Again, LOL, 4%, sure that's a population percentage, but completely pointless number when it comes to TV sales The US (in 2013, as my brief search for data can't find data for 2014 and US specifically) there were 34 million units, worldwide in 2013 there were 220 million units, which means the "small" 4% USA population accounted for quite a bit of TVs for how "small" the USA is right? I mean, 4% accounted for 15.5% of GLOBAL TVs. But hey continue to go on your idea that the US only accounts for a small number of people who actually USE and have ACCESS to Smart TVs. Way to pull random and completely useless information out of nowhere. BTW, just so you know how much i LOVE your amazing knowledge and logic!....You say a high end TV can do anything a STB can do, so why not get the TV? Yet, when you're told with ANY SMART TV CAN NOT DO (except Roku TVs, and even then they are limited compared to the STB version of it)- such as 2000+ Apps, you just go and say "oh, well, that doesn't matter, because, well... uh...it doesn't because i'm right you're wrong, smart TVs still do everything a STB can do" Yes, your amazing knowledge and logic is far superior to mine and, seemingly everyone else here. What you state is obviously fact even when proven wrong. Thank you, have a nice day.

It doesn't even matter. His argument is that no matter what, just buy a new TV. Also a $1000 TV doesn't even cut it for him anymore, because unless you have OLED, you're "subservient to another manufacturer/provider instead of the source of the content". Without that infinite contrast ratio you're just a slave bro. So every 3-6 months you should be buying a $6500 TV in order to properly enjoy anything. Can't afford that? You must be poor. Choose otherwise? You must be dumb.

"Still lacking a feature found in STB's...which only apply to one country for those people that actually use it" Another way of looking at it is, you can't buy those types of STB's and cards and have any use for them in any other country. That makes it niche. Sorry, it does not make my point null and void unless we are only talking about one country and that country being the one that has that use and applicability. I'm talking about products which apply to all users, which is what the Apple TV is designed for. Not against your point regarding user data, and I never have been - but that's a bigger and different discussion, dontchathink? 1080P is deader than disco, if you've buying a UHD teevee right now, you ain't buying "basic"; you're buying SMART.

1080P is far from dead....lol. To even claim so is laughable. You claim that TV's now have EVERY feature that STBs have.... Samsung released an STB almost 2 years ago that supports MCard, but will function properly without an MCard. TiVo supports MCard, but can function without one. Both boxes are available outside of the US, yet support MCard.

Citation(s) please. If you don't like my logic, then please give me an alternative. That's not sarcasm, that's an invitation. When people walk into a teevee store, they are not looking for a television with the most apps, so to argue they do is wrong. As stated, if there is a 'killer app' (for which I named the most popular) then the app exists on a teevee. Now, that's not me poo-pooing apps, that's breaking it down in real terms. People want to know about the best apps, not all apps.

You have google, use it for the citation. As to your logic, we all have, you apparently just don't like it. In terms of when people walk into a TV store, yes, you are actually correct for once. However, do you know what they ARE looking for? They are looking for cheap, but good. 70% of them don't care if the TV is smart, they just want a TV. 25% of them do care if the TV is smart, but quickly decide not to care when i tell them they can get the same apps they are looking for, for cheaper, in a STB, or a blu-ray player which they were planning on buying anyways. 5% of them ACTUALLY care if the TV is Smart, because they don't want another box, they don't want a disc player, but they want netflix. It's a very, very small amount of people, unlike what you're trying to put out there as though it's the majority of people. You could say, "Oh, well that's just your location", i have worked at many different stores for long periods of time, and though depending on how "ghetto" the area is determines how much people are willing to spend, it doesn't change what they want.