Just when everyone thought the silicon foundries are stuck and unable to progress much further... ... EUV imprinting comes in shiny very bright white armor to save the kingdom of Silicon ! Absolutely amazing what this new tech could bring in the next few years, processing chips of all kinds that are tens or even hundreds of times faster than today's best !

Hilbert Hagedoorn:

Small, smaller, smallest. Where will it stop

That's what she said.

TSMC: 3nm in 2021

Intel 14nm: https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/9e348a98f940aafeeff4937966a4c19a

cryohellinc:

Intel 14nm: https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/9e348a98f940aafeeff4937966a4c19a

Don't worry, it's least of intel's problems. Losing power efficiency crown? No problem, marketing will just stop talking about it. Losing IPC crown? No problem, marketing will refocus on GHz race. People being outraged about security fixes affecting HT performance? No problem, let's sell CPUs for gaming without HT. Competition selling overall 25% faster CPUs at same price points? No problem, marketing can keep consumer believing that price = performance. Outlook of losing GHz race with next generation, being 15% behind in IPC, having 30% worse power efficiency and need to keep high margins while competition delivers much more for less? Marketing silence... Intel is losing face unless they pull rainbow rabbit from the hat. - - - - Intel brought a lot of talent into their house. Mostly for GPUs, but they need a lot of work on CPUs too and their new shiny toy has not been heard of for now.

The good news is, that Zen3 seems to be 7nm EUV (let's see how things will turn out...) But after 3nm things will start to get very interesting, cause 3nm are (roughly) only 30 layers of atoms. - still, just woooow! 🙂

@Fox2232 Who says I'm worried?

Fox2232:

Don't worry, it's least of intel's problems.

Intel still haven't pulled up their pants since the first time ASML announced EUV was ready ages ago...wonder if they'll team up with a refrigerator manufacturer next.

Awesome news , loving to see this tech move forward.

did it get buried in the lede that TSMC is using a dedicated node for AMD? the new(ish) 5nm node will not-be-as-good as the AMD 5nm node according to TSMC. idk if a "+" or "++" will be assigned to those products (Ryzen/Radeon), but it will be a marked improvement over any other 5nm node fabbed by TSMC. and some people thought i was nuts or pulled the nature of the relationship out of my ass.

Next gen Zen3 7nm+ problably will match Intel in game performance. With a average of 20-30% more multtasking performance, more cheap CPU and with a lot of B320-B450-B550 with good/lower price what Intel will do? Put a single core at 6.0Ghz?!?! And make your PC a toster? The truth is hard to accept but... if Intel still in this way.... they will have a problem bigger than they can image!

Congratulations to TSMC. Now, I don't know which of their numerous fabs, nearly all of which are located in Taiwan, are producing these 5nm products, but I'd certainly like to see them duplicate their production facilities in at least one other location in the World. I've been of this opinion for quite awhile. Years. Having all these eggs in (mostly) a single basket is problematic in terms of a possible natural disaster; it is an island, after all. Recall the impact of the flooding in Thailand years back had on hard drive production. Aside from Mother Nature, it also seems a little too possible for some miscreant human entity to recognize just how much, in general, technology is centered on TSMC, and attempt, "That's a really nice fab facility you have there. Be a shame if something happened to it.." Or, some variation of that. I mean, these are fragile, delicate operations. We've all seen interior photos of wafer processing facilities. I likely have enough crud under just the front seat of my car to trash every fab on the entire island, six times over. Any sort of determined human "unrest" would likely be apocalyptic. Even in the absence of current events, it just seems like a good strategy to have something like a major force in the semiconductor production business not only have their facilities scattered, but replicated. And, yes, I've no doubt whatsoever who would ultimately underwrite the cost of this replication.

tunejunky:

did it get buried in the lede that TSMC is using a dedicated node for AMD? the new(ish) 5nm node will not-be-as-good as the AMD 5nm node according to TSMC. idk if a "+" or "++" will be assigned to those products (Ryzen/Radeon), but it will be a marked improvement over any other 5nm node fabbed by TSMC. and some people thought i was nuts or pulled the nature of the relationship out of my ass.

You did pull it out of your ass and you're doing it again. There is no source from TSMC that says the node is specific to AMD, in fact there is no source from TSMC at all - so stop saying "according to TSMC" when it's really "According to random Chinese rumor" https://www.pcgamer.com/amd-zen-4-specific-5nm-enhanced-node/

It does need to be said we're relying on machine translation here from the original Chinese, but we've gone through a few different sources to try and get it nailed down. One of those translation sources didn't seem to suggest that it was necessarily an AMD-specific node, so there does need to be a certain amount of sodium ingested at this point.

When you said AMD had a special relationship, you were specifically talking about how AMD/Apple bought all the 7nm supply and Nvidia wouldn't be shipping any next gen chips on it. That remains to be seen but let me remind you that Jens is still saying that they are going to be shipping on TSMC's 7nm part to investors. So when they inevitably ship on 7nm TSMC are you going to come in here and admit you were wrong or move the goalposts again? If you want to be optimistic, link the rumor, say it's a rumor and report what the rumor actually says - don't lie, change the source to TSMC and fantasize about it.

tunejunky:

did it get buried in the lede that TSMC is using a dedicated node for AMD? the new(ish) 5nm node will not-be-as-good as the AMD 5nm node according to TSMC. idk if a "+" or "++" will be assigned to those products (Ryzen/Radeon), but it will be a marked improvement over any other 5nm node fabbed by TSMC. and some people thought i was nuts or pulled the nature of the relationship out of my ass.

I'm there with you. Reading between the lines this is the advanced process AMD is hinting at. I'm not sure but I suspect TSMC is tailoring a 7nm node for Zen3 and now a 5nm node for AMD's Zen4. TSMC knows damn well they get a high power and high frequency process for AMD chips they will get a ton of high profit business. Its mutually beneficial. However with that said Apple also has a ton of input on the low power designs and get first dibs hence why the iPhone 12 is getting 5nm this year. I also suspect the nodes used for GPU production will be tailored for Nvidia for now.

Fantastic news!

cryohellinc:

@Fox2232 Who says I'm worried?

Was meant as a joke for trigger boy in photo.

Fox2232:

Was meant as a joke for trigger boy in photo.

Don't think he's triggered - was intending it as more of a "strain" on 14nm. 😉

Celcius:

Congratulations to TSMC. Now, I don't know which of their numerous fabs, nearly all of which are located in Taiwan, are producing these 5nm products, but I'd certainly like to see them duplicate their production facilities in at least one other location in the World. I've been of this opinion for quite awhile. Years. Having all these eggs in (mostly) a single basket is problematic in terms of a possible natural disaster; it is an island, after all. Recall the impact of the flooding in Thailand years back had on hard drive production. Aside from Mother Nature, it also seems a little too possible for some miscreant human entity to recognize just how much, in general, technology is centered on TSMC, and attempt, "That's a really nice fab facility you have there. Be a shame if something happened to it.." Or, some variation of that. I mean, these are fragile, delicate operations. We've all seen interior photos of wafer processing facilities. I likely have enough crud under just the front seat of my car to trash every fab on the entire island, six times over. Any sort of determined human "unrest" would likely be apocalyptic. Even in the absence of current events, it just seems like a good strategy to have something like a major force in the semiconductor production business not only have their facilities scattered, but replicated. And, yes, I've no doubt whatsoever who would ultimately underwrite the cost of this replication.

actually i suspect this is part of a national strategy by R.O.C. (Taipei). there is no nation as dependent on these fabs (and factories i.e. mobos) as the USA, upon whom the Taiwanese rely on for security. it's just a short boat ride to the mainland of China, so being the object of desire (for China) and a security partner of the USA is all part of the delicate dance they have to do to stay free. of course, with the unrest in Hong Kong, all of the lies of "one country, two systems" have been laid bare. even so by being the nicest "China shop" around does help to avoid bulls.

obtw.... my info on TSMC came from an INTERVIEW done with EETimes (electronic engineering times) the most highly regarded industry site. so. just. suck. it.

tunejunky:

obtw.... my info on TSMC came from an INTERVIEW done with EETimes (electronic engineering times) the most highly regarded industry site. so. just. suck. it.

My problem isn't that you're right or wrong, for all I know you work for these companies and everything you're posting is 100% accurate - my problem is that you do this. You make a statement like "AMD is getting it's own dedicated node that's better than 5nm according to TSMC" - which I cannot find a source for at all - in fact the only thing I can find on this claim is what I posted (chinese rumor, not from TSMC). You don't post your source. Then when I call you out on it, you again say it's from a place but don't post the source. I googled around looking for an EETimes interview and I cannot find one that backs the 5nm claim up. So I thought maybe you're talking about the Nvidia claim on Samsung 7nm - so I googled that too: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/samsung-nvidia-7nm-ampere-tsmc,39583.html Which points to this EETimes article as a source: https://www.eetimes.com/intel-says-euv-ready-challenging/ Which doesn't even mention Nvidia. So please link it so we can read it - in fact please link both. Otherwise I'm going to assume you're just doing the same thing you've done in multiple threads before this - making up sources. In which case I go back to my original statement, you're pulling it out of your ass -- and for all I know your ass is a treasure trove of good information -- but it's still coming from there.

Denial:

My problem isn't that you're right or wrong, for all I know you work for these companies and everything you're posting is 100% accurate - my problem is that you do this. You make a statement like "AMD is getting it's own dedicated node that's better than 5nm according to TSMC" - which I cannot find a source for at all - in fact the only thing I can find on this claim is what I posted (chinese rumor, not from TSMC). You don't post your source. Then when I call you out on it, you again say it's from a place but don't post the source. I googled around looking for an EETimes interview and I cannot find one that backs the 5nm claim up. So I thought maybe you're talking about the Nvidia claim on Samsung 7nm - so I googled that too: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/samsung-nvidia-7nm-ampere-tsmc,39583.html Which points to this EETimes article as a source: https://www.eetimes.com/intel-says-euv-ready-challenging/ Which doesn't even mention Nvidia. So please link it so we can read it - in fact please link both. Otherwise I'm going to assume you're just doing the same thing you've done in multiple threads before this - making up sources. In which case I go back to my original statement, you're pulling it out of your ass -- and for all I know your ass is a treasure trove of good information -- but it's still coming from there.

It's just he @Denial either misunderstood or didn't phrase this correctly. TSMC makes a new node it is for low power chips which is why Apple is always one node ahead of AMD since Apple gets on siad new node due to low power iPhone/iPad chips. Then TSMC takes said new node and tweaks it for high power chips. This usually takes about a year give or take a few months. Today AMD is a big client but obviously TSMC does not make a higher power process just for AMD.