Hilbert, I could be mistaken but from all your comments on the matter I seem to be getting the impression that you think the 3d V-Cache is somehow on a separate die from the CCD, like a chiplet made entirely of cache? 3d V-Cache is actually put directly on a single 8-core CCD by shaving it down then stacking an additional cache layer on top. https://files.catbox.moe/ltxr19.jpg Above is a single 8-core chiplet with 3dVcache. There are already contact points on the L3 area of the CCD for them to "add" cache to it, they only need to expose it by shaving the silicon. Then the V-Cache just goes on top and connects via Hybrid Bond 3D*. It doesn't need more space or data lanes than a normal CCD. The only reason that they didn't release more X3D CPUs on AM4 was because most of the dies were going to Milan-X. (Which, by the way, is also 64 cores, 128 threads, just like a regular non-X Milan CPU) https://files.catbox.moe/3hfoxr.jpg The X3D chiplets with 3D V-Cache are the same size, shape and contact points and core count as a regular CCD. The only difference between an X3D and a non-X3D chiplet is how much cache they have. Sorry if you already knew all this, Hilbert. But it kept standing out to me based on your previous comments on this that you seemed to imply that there was need for more lanes or space or something for X3D CPUs. Please don't be mad at me. *EDIT: Corrected to Hybrid Bond 3D, it doesn't use TSVs.

David3k:

3d V-Cache is actually put directly on a single 8-core CCD by shaving it down then stacking an additional cache layer on top.

The IHS for the 7000 series is too thick, so they should just make it thinner in the 3D models, to make room for the 3D cache on top of the chiplets. I'm sure there are technical considerations, but the IHS is still too thick, as made evident by the insane gains from delidding.

That's a nice spread of CPUs. But no 6 core with 3DV cache. That is a shame, as it would probably be the bang for buck CPU for gamers. My concern is the TDP. The 5800X3D only has a TFP of 105W, but still, when pushed hard it goes to 95ºC and starts to throttle. So these new CPUs with 170W of TDP might throttle even harder. A PBO offset does wonders for the 5800X3D. But for these 7000X3D, it will be essential.

Kaarme:

The IHS for the 7000 series is too thick, so they should just make it thinner in the 3D models, to make room for the 3D cache on top of the chiplets. I'm sure there are technical considerations, but the IHS is still too thick, as made evident by the insane gains from delidding.

That doesn't matter; whatever the z-height is of the CCD, the 3D V-Cache version will be the exact same z-height. They have to shave the chiplet down to expose the contact points and when they put the cache on top, it ends up being the exact same height as a normal chiplet. https://www.anandtech.com/show/16725/amd-demonstrates-stacked-vcache-technology-2-tbsec-for-15-gaming "The processor with V-Cache is the same z-height as current Zen 3 products - both the core chiplet and the V-Cache are thinned to have an equal z-height as the IOD die for seamless integration" That's why they have that Structural Silicon; to make sure the top of the chiplet is flat and to help conduct heat. If the current IHS is making contact with the Zen 4 chiplets without the V-Cache, it will have the same contact as the chiplets with V-Cache. You can confirm this by checking every delid of the 5800X3D; it uses the exact same IHS as the non-X3D chips. EDIT: Here is a relevant to information about z-heights and heatspreaders from AMD. Information about IHS starts at 1:47 seconds. [youtube=dSCpVhKvmCY]

I just hope, for the love of hardware gods, AMD gives us more than CPUs at CES.

tty8k:

I think HH concern was towards extra heat generated by adding the cache layer, which we also questioned on the forum when 7k series was launched. As seen on the 5800 3D the heat/surface was really difficult to cool even using high end coolers. 7k is already difficult to keep cool as it is, under heavy loads, I can imagine the 3D Cache version being limited to very expensive custom cooling. Or it will just throttle and limit the performance based on temperature.

Horus-Anhur:

That's a nice spread of CPUs. But no 6 core with 3DV cache. That is a shame, as it would probably be the bang for buck CPU for gamers. My concern is the TDP. The 5800X3D only has a TFP of 105W, but still, when pushed hard it goes to 95ºC and starts to throttle. So these new CPUs with 170W of TDP might throttle even harder. A PBO offset does wonders for the 5800X3D. But for these 7000X3D, it will be essential.

The only solution is lower clocks, just like the 5800X3d.

I thought the 5950X, Milan AND the 5800X3D ALL had binned chiplets, vs the 5900X, 5800X, 5700X and 5600X, including the non X variations for either TOP boost or better IPC to POWER ratios. So if the 7950X has the best BINNED chiplets, same for EPYC 3DVC, then the 7x00X3D may be thermally better? Or am I wrong? Even the 5800X3D can run on air, vs 12900K, at max CPU boost, but when coupled with a big WC, it can exceed the rated top boost speed so that tells us the CPU only thermal limited. I cannot wait for 7X00X3D CPUs.... I am torn to hold out for an all red 7x00x3D + RX 7x00XT3DVC system or just bite the bullet and hobble along with the best GPU I can find for under 500 USD.

Horus-Anhur:

That's a nice spread of CPUs. But no 6 core with 3DV cache. That is a shame, as it would probably be the bang for buck CPU for gamers. My concern is the TDP. The 5800X3D only has a TFP of 105W, but still, when pushed hard it goes to 95ºC and starts to throttle. So these new CPUs with 170W of TDP might throttle even harder. A PBO offset does wonders for the 5800X3D. But for these 7000X3D, it will be essential.

Perhaps no 7600X3D but if they can do a 7600G3D, that would be appealing.

1) thermal throttling is no longer an issue w/3D cache gen 2 they imported the Milan-X solution of having different power circuits for the cache and the chiplets with different regulation. prev. in 5800X3D the chiplet and cache shared same circuits where the cache was getting too much power and the subsequent result with heat. 2) 5800X3D wasn't binned but the 5950, and Milan 3D are binned 3) PBO will work on 2nd gen 3D cache while it was disabled on the 5800X3D

schmidtbag:

Perhaps no 7600X3D but if they can do a 7600G3D, that would be appealing.

dude! DUDE! DUDE! you bet. it would slay entry level cards

tunejunky:

3) PBO will work on 2nd gen 3D cache while it was disabled on the 5800X3D

For some Asus boards, PBO now fully functionnal within bios for 5800X3D with latest bios release roughly a week ago (bios 2806 in my case, B550-F chipset) To all 5800X3D owners, time to flash has come... 😉

tunejunky:

dude! DUDE! DUDE! you bet. it would slay entry level cards

Intel did something similar with the i7 5775C a long time ago and it absolutely dominated benchmarks against other processors with iGPUs. And remember: that was with Intel's graphics back when they were pretty crappy (if people think they're bad now, it was worse back then), and with DDR3. With RDNA2 and DDR5, the 7600G3D could be the first ever socketed x86 chip capable of offering a max detail 1080p 30-60FPS. Perhaps you'd have to lower texture details a notch of two (you never need to max out textures on modern games at 1080p since they're meant for 4K, and texture detail is what really cripples APU performance) but otherwise, I could see this being one of AMD's best chips for budget or SFF builds. You could most likely do a <1 liter build with such a chip. AMD has yet to mention any APUs for AM5 so there is hope that such a chip will exist. It'd be interesting the if the GPU core itself would have V-cache on top of it. There's an old iMac with a 1920x1200 display that I've been meaning to convert into a decent AIO system. A chip like this would be perfect for it.

Kaarme:

The IHS for the 7000 series is too thick, so they should just make it thinner in the 3D models, to make room for the 3D cache on top of the chiplets. I'm sure there are technical considerations, but the IHS is still too thick, as made evident by the insane gains from delidding.

I have not really seen any insane gains when delidding. Most videos use different paste, direct die, IHS lapping, different mounting pressure or different bios settings after delid, making the before and after results about much more then just IHS thickness.

Valken:

I thought the 5950X, Milan AND the 5800X3D ALL had binned chiplets, vs the 5900X, 5800X, 5700X and 5600X, including the non X variations for either TOP boost or better IPC to POWER ratios. So if the 7950X has the best BINNED chiplets, same for EPYC 3DVC, then the 7x00X3D may be thermally better?

Binned is more fluent then just yes or no, the 5800x comes in 1 and 2 stepping, the later 2 version is a little more efficient then the first version, I am guessing the better production line simply made better chips, so the bad ones are not really that bad anymore. Same could be happening with 7000 series, 3-4 months of small refinements on the production line could already produce better 7000 series chips, before they start "gluing" cache onto the CPU.

schmidtbag:

Intel did something similar with the i7 5775C a long time ago and it absolutely dominated benchmarks against other processors with iGPUs. And remember: that was with Intel's graphics back when they were pretty crappy (if people think they're bad now, it was worse back then), and with DDR3. With RDNA2 and DDR5, the 7600G3D could be the first ever socketed x86 chip capable of offering a max detail 1080p 30-60FPS. Perhaps you'd have to lower texture details a notch of two (you never need to max out textures on modern games at 1080p since they're meant for 4K, and texture detail is what really cripples APU performance) but otherwise, I could see this being one of AMD's best chips for budget or SFF builds. You could most likely do a <1 liter build with such a chip. AMD has yet to mention any APUs for AM5 so there is hope that such a chip will exist. It'd be interesting the if the GPU core itself would have V-cache on top of it. There's an old iMac with a 1920x1200 display that I've been meaning to convert into a decent AIO system. A chip like this would be perfect for it.

idk about 3d cache, but next gen apus w/ rdna 3 are on their way. it'll probably be a bullet point during Lisa's presentation @ CES along with the mid-range cards, TR, and 3d cache refresh

Indeed a six core model would be very welcome because these are obviously chips oriented for gamers. Of course I wish there is an absolute high end variant for those who want both the best application performance and gaming performance, so perhaps the best options would be a six core model for gamers and an eight core alternative as well for those who may see benefit in eight cores, which is possible in some games and more so in the future, and finally a sixteen core model for those who want it all. If additional heat is truly a problem in the design, I think it is not a big loss in gaming to cut down clocks even to Eco Mode levels, but likely that is not necessary. When you add so much cache you gain performance anyway even if clock speed is significantly lower, so I would personally not waste power on these gamer oriented models, but use lesser chips if yields are varying in quality - Intel is beaten in any case, since I'm doubtful of how much a possible Raptor Lake refresh can bring on the table. EDIT. I thought 7800X would be an eight core part, but this time it might have ten cores (which would be cool), so I removed some text. The rumors say it would have the same clocks as 7700X.

I think 6 core 3D CPUs are unlikely, because they have high potential to kill the 8 core 3D cpus because of potentially higher clockspeed due to lower core count and lower power consumption therefore lower heat resulting in higher clockspeed overall. But I hope I'm wrong on this one.

schmidtbag:

Perhaps no 7600X3D but if they can do a 7600G3D, that would be appealing.

7600G3D or 7700G3D would be VERY sweet. I will GLADLY ditch my gaming rig for one of those and be happy with medium-high 1080p gaming with small form factor and low power consumption, I mostly play older games and emulator anyway right now lol. I'm using Lian Li Lancool II Mesh right now and it feels too big for my desk and considering smaller case, 7700G3D would be PERFECT.

So the 5800x3d is generally a better gaming CPU than the 5800X. But will a 7900x3d see a bigger gaming boost over a 7900x?

@GamerNerves I do not know about 10 cores .... Every single zen product ever did not had uneven CCDs to get 10 cores would need a configuration of 6+4 or 5+5 , I do not know if they can be fused of only in pairs so chiplets of 2 4 6 8 cores are possible or if even there is a simetrical limitation , but judging from epyc threadripper and Ryzen product lineups to date it seems unlikely.

PC-Tweaker:

For some Asus boards, PBO now fully functionnal within bios for 5800X3D with latest bios release roughly a week ago (bios 2806 in my case, B550-F chipset) To all 5800X3D owners, time to flash has come... 😉

Hey, that's interesting. Does this new BIOS version support raising FMAX above 4550 MHz too? I'm currently using the PBO2 tuner tool in Windows, triggered by a scheduled task. It's great for setting Curve Optimizer offsets plus PPT, TDC and EDC, but it cannot effectively raise FMAX above the default 4550 MHz.

pegasus1:

So the 5800x3d is generally a better gaming CPU than the 5800X. But will a 7900x3d see a bigger gaming boost over a 7900x?

imho, bigger is doubtful but we should see the same delta between 3d/normal