Truder:

Yes, it's mostly just additional cache increases - the major changes stem from the iodie

Cache increase, new IO die, RDNA graphics, die shrink, DDR5, SIMDs bursting at the seams, etc - that's an incremental change to you? Sure, it isn't the same leap Zen+ was to Zen2, but it's more than a "tick" (if we use Intel's terms).

H83:

Many here seem to crave only the 3d cache versions but i don`t think they are anything special. Sure, they offer a very nice performance bump when gaming, the only reason why i buy good hardware, but that increase becomens minimal when using real resolutions. Even worse, the price difference between the "normal" versions and the ones with 3d cache is so big that for me is better to buy the cheaper CPU and use the difference to buy a better GPU. This is just my opinion anyway. As for the new line up, the 7700x seems perfect but it`s a little more expensive than i want and with the high prices of MBs, i`m asking myself if it`s worth the money. The problem is that Intel is going to charge the same or even more...

A few counter-arguments: 1. For some, gaming is the only thing they really expect it to do. As I always say: buy what you need. Getting a 13900K or 7950X will likely yield similar performance to something like a 7800X3D yet you will pay a lot more and they'll be more power hungry. 2. Oddly enough, the general-purpose Linux performance was improved by the V-cache, yet gaming performance didn't see much improvement. So for Linux (and probably BSD) users, it might be a good overall upgrade. 3. The cache yields higher framerates despite lower overall clock speeds. While the chip does run hot, it should be able to maintain a more consistent clock speed. This is because, unlike highly-boosted non-V-cache CPUs, this isn't being pushed to the point of instability. I'd rather have a CPU that can more often reach it's maximum potential (or close to it) than one that loses a hefty percentage of its maximum performance under the same temperature. 4. How are you judging the price point? Because from what I recall, the 5800X3D is cheaper than the 5800X at MSRP. Granted, the 5800X was stupidly overpriced, but the point is the X3D model isn't too drastically more expensive considering it can often punch above its class. 5. If you care more about 4K@60HZ and max detail then yeah, spending less on the CPU and more on the GPU is a smarter choice. Anyway, I agree that the cost of a whole upgrade is looking a bit unappealing. I certainly won't be an early adopter of AM5.

schmidtbag:

Cache increase, new IO die, RDNA graphics, die shrink, DDR5, SIMDs bursting at the seams, etc - that's an incremental change to you? Sure, it isn't the same leap Zen+ was to Zen2, but it's more than a "tick" (if we use Intel's terms).

The IO Die aren't CPU improvements though, more like updated northbridge. I'm not denying such changes of course but from the CPU improvements themselves, they are indeed iterative. What have we got? Increased TDP, clockspeed, increased cache and.... AVX-512?

Nice, very nice but I'm going to stay with my 5950X even if I was a position to upgrade plus I've only had it for a year so it makes little sense for me. Plus, gaming at 4K means I'm GPU bound alot of the time anyways. I'll be in a better position to do a full system rebuild year after next so I'll be looking at Meteor Lake or Zen 4/3D or even Zen 5, also DDR5 should be more saner in terms of prices and more mature.

Overall imo, this is a platform update rather than a CPU architecture overhaul - perhaps, as Astyanax says, it would be worth looking at the Agners architecture guide or other architecture deep dives to see what's really changed on the CPU front.

Kirkyl:

Nice, very nice but I'm going to stay with my 5950X even if I was a position to upgrade plus I've only had it for a year so it makes little sense for me. Plus, gaming at 4K means I'm GPU bound alot of the time anyways. I'll be in a better position to do a full system rebuild year after next so I'll be looking at Meteor Lake or Zen 4/3D or even Zen 5, also DDR5 should be more saner in terms of prices and more mature.

5950 is a great CPU and will be for many years to come.

Glottiz:

LMAO what are you bubbling about? My 12700K, 3080 OC system with 55" 4K TV and PC speakers, router connected to wall power monitor in total using ~400W when playing this game in 4K with RT. Yes 12900K is more power hungry than 12700K but not by much in games. And 3090 is like +100W tops over 3080. I call BS on this whole nonsense you posted.

Exactly. When we're talking about power draw for a gaming rig, the CPU power draw is miniscule compared to the GPU. My 2060 will draw an easy 175-200W during gaming while my 10850K sits there at 30-45W. The 3090 appears to be able to draw 450W and with that, you might draw 100W from a 12900K in a game at peak loads, most of the time probably still at 50W or less. Talking about CPU power draw while you're running a 3090 is just lame.

Maddness:

5950 is a great CPU and will be for many years to come.

Im on a 3800x so something like a 7900x will be a big jump for me, i play DCS a lot and that loves CPU power even at 4k as so much going on in the background. Im thinking £1500 for a new CPU,MOBO and 64gb RAM.

pegasus1:

Im on a 3800x so something like a 7900x will be a big jump for me, i play DCS a lot and that loves CPU power even at 4k as so much going on in the background. Im thinking £1500 for a new CPU,MOBO and 64gb RAM.

That is just too much. Im also using 3800x and was thinking something like 7700x/x670/32gb ( 400$ cpu, 200$ board, 300$ ram). I still need pcie5 nvme and a maybe rx7700xt. Holy crap this hobby is costly. 😀

Undying:

That is just too much. Im also using 3800x and was thinking something like 7700x/x670/32gb ( 400$ cpu, 200$ board, 300$ ram). I still need pcie5 nvme and a maybe rx7700xt. Holy crap this hobby is costly. 😀

It is but for me its my only vice, no mortgage, kids grown up, cars paid for, rarely drink, don't smoke take drugs or gamble, don't do hookers, good job and single.

pegasus1:

It is but for me its my only vice, no mortgage, kids grown up, cars paid for, rarely drink, don't smoke take drugs or gamble, don't do hookers, good job and single.

Hey i dont judge. Enjoy it. 😎

Undying:

That is just too much. Im also using 3800x and was thinking something like 7700x/x670/32gb ( 400$ cpu, 200$ board, 300$ ram). I still need pcie5 nvme and a maybe rx7700xt. Holy crap this hobby is costly. 😀

I was thinking something similar, like 7700X, X670MB, 32Gb RAM (400€ CPU, 300€ MB and 200€ RAM). That`s already 900€! The problem is that the 7700X is probably going to start at 450€ In Portugal, the board i like is going to at least 350€ and for the RAM, i just don`t know. So, that`s already more than 1.000€ just for the backbone of the system! For reference, my current 7600K system cost me 1.250€, including a GTX1070... My next upgrade is going to rape my wallet without mercy...

Horus-Anhur:

Boing by AMD's presentation, they seem to be very powerful CPUs. It's going to be very interesting seeing the benchmarks between Zen4 and Alder Lake. And then against Raptor Lake. I wonder if AMD can release a 7800X3D in time for the Raptor Lake release. I was expecting to see something regarding AM4. But it was all about Zen4. 🙁

Hold to AM4 mate. It was a comment months ago saying that AMD depending sales might drop a Zen4 on AM4 around early 2023. And whole argument made sense, because with people squeezed financially, going to new platform will be expensive for winter 2022-23 and AMD needs the sales as Intel and Nvidia.

Can somebody enlighten me on something. When we quote the likes of IPC and TDP, do Intel and AMD compare oranges to oranges, ie car manufactures quote MPH or KPH, the dont just say 'Speed - 150' or 'acceleration - 6'. I was watching both Gamers Nexus and Jays 2C and if i understood correctly AMD measure TDP differently from Intel, and that IPC is measured at a set CPU speed rather than the maximum CPU speed. Did i misunderstand this or are people complaining that the number blue smells different to the letter green.

Budget constraints and other priorities currently prevent me from building a new gaming rig. Also my current one still suits my needs. But it's still nice to see how AMD puts the pressure on Intel. That drives performance as a whole and keep prices somewhat manageable. Definitely looking forward to what might be available in 2025, when I'll retire my current PC for sure, due to end of support for Windows 10.

@LesserHellspawn yeah I spose there's two types on here, those who adopt the very latest releases, and those who are happy with their hardware if it is fit for purpose. No rights or wrongs, food on the table and shoes on the feet are more important than a few extra FPS

pegasus1:

Can somebody enlighten me on something. When we quote the likes of IPC and TDP, do Intel and AMD compare oranges to oranges, ie car manufactures quote MPH or KPH, the dont just say 'Speed - 150' or 'acceleration - 6'. I was watching both Gamers Nexus and Jays 2C and if i understood correctly AMD measure TDP differently from Intel, and that IPC is measured at a set CPU speed rather than the maximum CPU speed. Did i misunderstand this or are people complaining that the number blue smells different to the letter green.

AMD and Intel and NVidia have different ways of calculating their TDPs. So it's pointless to compare them. I this case we just have to wait for reviews that test power usage, like guru3d does. IPC is a very strange term, that varies a lot with what program is being run. For example, cinebench, or similar rendering programs, have little dependence on cache and OoO. But it scales well with cores and pipeline width. This means that a CPU with many cores and a wide pipeline, but with a weak memory system and bad OoO, can have great results. But this hypothetical CPU would have trouble running most other apps and games. Another program that is also used to measure IPC is y-cruncher or Super Pi. These scale much better with a fast memory system. Not so much with other features. Games depend a lot on the memory system, especially caches and fast ram. And also depend on a good OoO. But they don't scale much past 6c12t and with very wide pipelines. Then there is the issue with specific instruction sets. If a CPU has a specific instruction set that accelerates certain workloads, a program that uses it will be many times faster. But a program that can't use it, will see no gains. These are just examples, but it might help understand that IPC is not a standard measurement. This is why we always have to see benchmarks with many programs and games.

@Horus-Anhur Thanks bud, personally i only look at benchmarks for games i play, or the kinds of games i play, and also for video editing software. It also now seems pretty stupid that people criticise one manufacturer over another concerning TDP and IPC when in fact they are both singing from different song sheets.

pegasus1:

@Horus-Anhur Thanks bud, personally i only look at benchmarks for games i play, or the kinds of games i play, and also for video editing software. It also now seems pretty stupid that people criticise one manufacturer over another concerning TDP and IPC when in fact they are both singing from different song sheets.

Companies do PR to sell their products. Sadly, a lot of people can't understand this, and think an ad is always factual. That's why professional reviewers are very important, for consumers to make educated decisions about their purchases.

Preciselly, professional reviewers that care to educate the consumer, not the nowadays influencers that proliferate over the web.

TDP (Watts) = (tCase°C - tAmbient°C)/(HSF θca) This was the equation used for calculating TDP for Zen2 CPUs. A very arbitrary equation with no reference to actual power, it may have changed since then though. Regardless of TDP ratings though, the problem with cooling Zen2 and up is that the CPU chiplets are so small, that while they don't necessarily use a lot of power (and thus generate a lot of heat), the heat they do generate is so concentrated, that is, the thermal density is so high (due to the number of transistors in such a small area) means you need to have a cooler that is able to transport the heat away from the area quickly. You don't necessarily need a large high capacity cooler, just one that can transport the heat away quickly. I found that pump speed on my AIO for example made the largest difference to cooling capability, without needing to have high fan speeds on the radiator. I imagine for this very reason, Zen4 is going to be exceptionally more difficult to cool than Zen2 and Zen3.