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Microsoft Explains Why They Did Not Go for Ryzen in Project Scorpio
In a reply to Eurogamer, Microsoft explained as to why the company has not opted an AMD Ryzen CPU for their Project Scorpio. Basically they claim they can achieve their performance targets without Ryzen, Jaguar cores would be fast enough without being a CPU bottleneck.
In short, they likely opted a solution where the jaguar cores have been tweaked in such a fashion that the system would not see a CPU bottleneck. The company would probably wanted eight physical CPU cores in its SoC. Since Ryzen cores are considerably larger they also are more costly to use on a console SoC.
On the CPU side, there's been much conjecture that Scorpio would feature AMD's new Ryzen technology - something we thought unlikely, owing to manufacturing timelines, not to mention Microsoft telling us last year that the new console would feature eight CPU cores. All signs point to the upclocked Jaguar cores we find in Xbox One, and Scorpio's CPU set-up is indeed an evolution of that tech, but subject to extensive customisation and the offloading of key tasks to dedicated hardware.
"So, eight cores, organised as two clusters with a total of 4MB of L2 cache. These are unique customised CPUs for Scorpio running at 2.3GHz. Alluding back to the goals, we wanted to maintain 100 per cent backwards compatibility with Xbox One and Xbox One S while also pushing the performance envelope," says Nick Baker.
It seems clear that the Xbox team changed this SoC significantly with specific performance targets in mind. Although the design is based on AMD architecture, many things changed and have been added. since there is a display controller with HDMI 2.1-support as well as hardware based DirectX 12 API calls.
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JonasBeckman
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#5422148 Posted on: 04/19/2017 08:43 AM
Well on PC going by the various CPU comparison and gaming most games don't see that much of a gain above 4 cores or sometimes even just 2 cores there's a couple of exceptions but clock speed is still the deciding factor above core count if it's primarily for gaming.
As for 8+ core CPU's I thought you needed server variant models for that, AMD and Intel do have their hyper-threading thing though allowing each core to handle 2 threads each but it doesn't make up for a actual physical core.
(Making a 6 core register as if it has 12 but 6 are logical and 6 are physical, not that I know all that much on how this works.)
Though console development still differs from PC, would be interesting to see what this could do at a higher clock speed since it's running at "just" 2.3 Ghz although I guess with how compact the case is on these consoles heat buildup is a bit of a issue.
(Water cooled 3 Ghz limited edition?
)
Well on PC going by the various CPU comparison and gaming most games don't see that much of a gain above 4 cores or sometimes even just 2 cores there's a couple of exceptions but clock speed is still the deciding factor above core count if it's primarily for gaming.
As for 8+ core CPU's I thought you needed server variant models for that, AMD and Intel do have their hyper-threading thing though allowing each core to handle 2 threads each but it doesn't make up for a actual physical core.
(Making a 6 core register as if it has 12 but 6 are logical and 6 are physical, not that I know all that much on how this works.)
Though console development still differs from PC, would be interesting to see what this could do at a higher clock speed since it's running at "just" 2.3 Ghz although I guess with how compact the case is on these consoles heat buildup is a bit of a issue.
(Water cooled 3 Ghz limited edition?
)
0blivious
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#5422153 Posted on: 04/19/2017 08:55 AM
Ryzen shines brightest in non-gaming situations so this isn't terribly surprising considering it's a box meant solely for gaming.
Ryzen shines brightest in non-gaming situations so this isn't terribly surprising considering it's a box meant solely for gaming.
Fox2232
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#5422165 Posted on: 04/19/2017 09:15 AM
It is more of optimization. cat cores have different performance ration for each instruction type than other modern CPUs.
in other words, if they develop game for XBox One, then all instructions will run proportionally faster on Scorpio and it remains in balance without extra optimizations.
But if they used Ryzen, then one would have to think about weaknesses in Cat cores and evade certain instructions which are much faster in Ryzen.
As result Ryzen advantages would be wasted or MS would shoot themselves in foot by having games which are great on Scorpio and bad on XBox One.
Then, if Scorpio is made on modern manufacturing process, it will clock quite well within its TDP.
I would not see problem in Scorpio not having everything newest and greatest.
It is more of optimization. cat cores have different performance ration for each instruction type than other modern CPUs.
in other words, if they develop game for XBox One, then all instructions will run proportionally faster on Scorpio and it remains in balance without extra optimizations.
But if they used Ryzen, then one would have to think about weaknesses in Cat cores and evade certain instructions which are much faster in Ryzen.
As result Ryzen advantages would be wasted or MS would shoot themselves in foot by having games which are great on Scorpio and bad on XBox One.
Then, if Scorpio is made on modern manufacturing process, it will clock quite well within its TDP.
I would not see problem in Scorpio not having everything newest and greatest.
Ricepudding
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#5422178 Posted on: 04/19/2017 10:01 AM
Guess they finally came out and said that it is the same CPU just overclocked... Sigh, i have my worries about this and 4k 60, specially on games that are more CPU intensive, it's the big issue on the ps4pro i can't see that it won't be a problem on this... but i guess time will tell there when games come out on it.
As for them not using Ryzen, apart from money... i assume they are just too lazy to have the extra development time on their games, though aren't all xbox games now coming to PC? so not sure if that still holds water at this point
Guess they finally came out and said that it is the same CPU just overclocked... Sigh, i have my worries about this and 4k 60, specially on games that are more CPU intensive, it's the big issue on the ps4pro i can't see that it won't be a problem on this... but i guess time will tell there when games come out on it.
As for them not using Ryzen, apart from money... i assume they are just too lazy to have the extra development time on their games, though aren't all xbox games now coming to PC? so not sure if that still holds water at this point
Lane
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#5422181 Posted on: 04/19/2017 10:07 AM
Guess they finally came out and said that it is the same CPU just overclocked... Sigh, i have my worries about this and 4k 60, specially on games that are more CPU intensive, it's the big issue on the ps4pro i can't see that it won't be a problem on this... but i guess time will tell there when games come out on it.
As for them not using Ryzen, apart from money... i assume they are just too lazy to have the extra development time on their games, though aren't all xbox games now coming to PC? so not sure if that still holds water at this point
So you should maybe read this article. Forza 4k 60fps. one day work one men only.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/296227/Gears_of_War_and_Forza_devs_weigh_in_on_making_games_for_Scorpio.php
Guess they finally came out and said that it is the same CPU just overclocked... Sigh, i have my worries about this and 4k 60, specially on games that are more CPU intensive, it's the big issue on the ps4pro i can't see that it won't be a problem on this... but i guess time will tell there when games come out on it.
As for them not using Ryzen, apart from money... i assume they are just too lazy to have the extra development time on their games, though aren't all xbox games now coming to PC? so not sure if that still holds water at this point
So you should maybe read this article. Forza 4k 60fps. one day work one men only.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/296227/Gears_of_War_and_Forza_devs_weigh_in_on_making_games_for_Scorpio.php
Fox2232
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#5422183 Posted on: 04/19/2017 10:22 AM
Guess they finally came out and said that it is the same CPU just overclocked... Sigh, i have my worries about this and 4k 60, specially on games that are more CPU intensive, it's the big issue on the ps4pro i can't see that it won't be a problem on this... but i guess time will tell there when games come out on it.
As for them not using Ryzen, apart from money... i assume they are just too lazy to have the extra development time on their games, though aren't all xbox games now coming to PC? so not sure if that still holds water at this point
If cpu can feed draw calls to do 60 fps on 1080p, then it can do it on 4k with very same content.
I am happy that software renderers are thing of the past in games....
Guess they finally came out and said that it is the same CPU just overclocked... Sigh, i have my worries about this and 4k 60, specially on games that are more CPU intensive, it's the big issue on the ps4pro i can't see that it won't be a problem on this... but i guess time will tell there when games come out on it.
As for them not using Ryzen, apart from money... i assume they are just too lazy to have the extra development time on their games, though aren't all xbox games now coming to PC? so not sure if that still holds water at this point
If cpu can feed draw calls to do 60 fps on 1080p, then it can do it on 4k with very same content.
I am happy that software renderers are thing of the past in games....
Fender178
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#5422185 Posted on: 04/19/2017 10:32 AM
I can see why they did this. If they were to have a bottleneck of some kind they could take a performance hit and games wouldn't run as well as they could hence the usage of the Jaguar cores instead of Ryzen. They already know how the Jaguar cores function so they know what tweaks they needed to get this working correctly.
I can see why they did this. If they were to have a bottleneck of some kind they could take a performance hit and games wouldn't run as well as they could hence the usage of the Jaguar cores instead of Ryzen. They already know how the Jaguar cores function so they know what tweaks they needed to get this working correctly.
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#5422209 Posted on: 04/19/2017 12:30 PM
So you should maybe read this article. Forza 4k 60fps. one day work one men only.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/296227/Gears_of_War_and_Forza_devs_weigh_in_on_making_games_for_Scorpio.php
I'll believe it more when its actually out, GPU wise i can see it doing it. i'm more worried about CPU intensive games such as halo wars 2 as a prime example (though maybe the graphics will just be tuned).
I'm just hesitant to believe it till i see it atleast, hope i'm wrong might be nice to actually have a console hit a constant 60 frames per a second
So you should maybe read this article. Forza 4k 60fps. one day work one men only.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/296227/Gears_of_War_and_Forza_devs_weigh_in_on_making_games_for_Scorpio.php
I'll believe it more when its actually out, GPU wise i can see it doing it. i'm more worried about CPU intensive games such as halo wars 2 as a prime example (though maybe the graphics will just be tuned).
I'm just hesitant to believe it till i see it atleast, hope i'm wrong might be nice to actually have a console hit a constant 60 frames per a second
Undying
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#5422212 Posted on: 04/19/2017 12:37 PM
Idk, DF said multiple that even a PS4 Pro GPU is bottlenecked by Jaguar cores in a specific games.
Idk, DF said multiple that even a PS4 Pro GPU is bottlenecked by Jaguar cores in a specific games.
Loophole35
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#5422214 Posted on: 04/19/2017 12:43 PM
PS4 Pro's GPU is a bit of a bastard though as it's a second GPU tacked on and setup like crossfire not a single unit. This silicon will be a single GPU with 40 CU.
Idk, DF said multiple that even a PS4 Pro GPU is bottlenecked by Jaguar cores in a specific games.
PS4 Pro's GPU is a bit of a bastard though as it's a second GPU tacked on and setup like crossfire not a single unit. This silicon will be a single GPU with 40 CU.
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#5422215 Posted on: 04/19/2017 12:53 PM
It is a single unit, isn't it? They only said that it's mirrored like a "butterfly" (as Cerny said), so that they can disable half of it for games that have no boost mode or PS4 Pro awareness.
PS4 Pro's GPU is a bit of a bastard though as it's a second GPU tacked on and setup like crossfire not a single unit. This silicon will be a single GPU with 40 CU.
It is a single unit, isn't it? They only said that it's mirrored like a "butterfly" (as Cerny said), so that they can disable half of it for games that have no boost mode or PS4 Pro awareness.
Denial
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#5422220 Posted on: 04/19/2017 01:02 PM
Well the exact quote is confusing:
But yeah, it's one large unit:
https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/4N6gx2rfRwkLEJLU.medium
From the ifixit teardown.
Up until like a few days ago I also thought it was two separate units.
It is a single unit, isn't it? They only said that it's mirrored like a "butterfly" (as Cerny said), so that they can disable half of it for games that have no boost mode or PS4 Pro awareness.
Well the exact quote is confusing:
Instead of using an entirely new GPU, Cerny said the PS4 Pro is using a "double-sized one." In effect, the new console has a second, identical GPU configured next to the original, with a 14 percent boost in frequency to 911MHz, which more than doubles the processing power of the Pro
But yeah, it's one large unit:
https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/4N6gx2rfRwkLEJLU.medium
From the ifixit teardown.
Up until like a few days ago I also thought it was two separate units.
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#5422224 Posted on: 04/19/2017 01:13 PM
Well, one of the more interesting things for me about the Scorpio is how the Jaguar cores deal with the GDDR5 memory bandwidth. Did they manage to customise it so the CPU can use it or is it more than it can handle?
Well, one of the more interesting things for me about the Scorpio is how the Jaguar cores deal with the GDDR5 memory bandwidth. Did they manage to customise it so the CPU can use it or is it more than it can handle?
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#5422237 Posted on: 04/19/2017 01:42 PM
Maybe I should have worded that better it's like you say but on one die. The fact that it can be cut in half like that leads me to think it is more of a CF setup when fully utilized as each Half would require it's own MC's and cashe's, no?
It is a single unit, isn't it? They only said that it's mirrored like a "butterfly" (as Cerny said), so that they can disable half of it for games that have no boost mode or PS4 Pro awareness.
Maybe I should have worded that better it's like you say but on one die. The fact that it can be cut in half like that leads me to think it is more of a CF setup when fully utilized as each Half would require it's own MC's and cashe's, no?
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This and PS4 is what makes Ryzen not that important for gaming and makes Intel stay on the same level of performance.
As long as 8 cores are enought for a console, games will not improve to much.
If you need a CPU only for gaming there is no need for something more that a 8 core CPU (my opinion). To many games are console games ported to the PC so if the port is ok no need for extra power.