Ice Lake for Mainstream Delayed to 2020

tunejunky

2018-09-25 17:59

schmidtbag:

When you account clock-per-clock performance and the security mitigations, no, Intel doesn't "wipe the floor" on single-core performance. They're still overall better, but only marginally. AMD has been slashing prices on a lot of their existing products when nobody was pressuring them to do so. I figure that Zen 2 will probably be consistent with the MSRP of previous generations, but due to TSMC's workload continuing to increase, I'm sure the prices will remain stable.

nope. prices will continue on a downward trend on all TSMC Partner production. Apple is bearing the highest level of "the freight" as they are lead partner with the most investment, AMD's Partner production was front-loaded in their contract and worked out between Apple and AMD.

#5588921

TLD LARS

2018-09-25 19:36

Lebon30:

Everyone here kind of knew that it was going to happen. Hopefully, when they'll get Ice Lake ready, it's going to kick ass (because, at this point, they will have felt the heat for a while now).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- More heat is not going to make a better Ice Lake. They are fighting to get something usable out of the 10nm production, so i would guess that the highest priority is to get a fully working Ice Lake, then they can start to improve it afterwards. They can not afford to hold back Ice Lake to improve it, when AMD, if according to plan, will have a complete lineup of 7nm before 2020.

#5588974

H83

2018-09-25 22:23

fabtech:

It's nothing about being unlucky. This just what happens when you are to sure about yourself, that you think you can use the same process indefinitely and slow down innovation to get more in your pocket by forgetting that you are not alone in CPU industry. Intel did the same mistake with the Pentium 4, seems they didn't learn the lesson. I am just happy they are in this mess, because they just got in by themselves.

cryohellinc:

No luck involved, instead, it's greed combined with delusions of grandeur. This is what happens when there is no competition. You have no innovation, and the same product is being milked nonstop.AMD has really given Intel a cold shower in that matter, as Intel felt way too comfortable at their position.

No here to defend Intel but they aren´t on this position because they wanted to milk the same process or same product over and over again. They are only doing that currently since they have no other alternatives because their 10nm process is a giant disaster that simply doesn´t work!!! And until they solve that disaster they will continue to use/milk the same process and products because that´s all they have to offer right now... Yes it´s stupid how a company the size of Intel is in this mess but that´s the way it is... About Intel being greedy and all that stuff you guys are right.

#5589041

cryohellinc

2018-09-26 06:38

H83:

No here to defend Intel but they aren´t on this position because they wanted to milk the same process or same product over and over again. They are only doing that currently since they have no other alternatives because their 10nm process is a giant disaster that simply doesn´t work!!! And until they solve that disaster they will continue to use/milk the same process and products because that´s all they have to offer right now... Yes it´s stupid how a company the size of Intel is in this mess but that´s the way it is... About Intel being greedy and all that stuff you guys are right.

If Intel financed their dev teams more, instead of bribing HP and other manufacturers to offer "Intel only" products, I think we might have seen by now Intel 7nm. Sure they have no other option but 14nm right now, but at least we could have seen a shrink to at least 12nm in a form of revision.

#5589047

Fox2232

2018-09-26 07:05

TLD LARS:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- More heat is not going to make a better Ice Lake. They are fighting to get something usable out of the 10nm production, so i would guess that the highest priority is to get a fully working Ice Lake, then they can start to improve it afterwards. They can not afford to hold back Ice Lake to improve it, when AMD, if according to plan, will have a complete lineup of 7nm before 2020.

Intel has few goals for 10nm. One not so important for desktop is Power consumption. Really, consumers will not know, not care... marketing takes care of that as always. But that's important for mobile and server, and that's why they need to deliver improvements. And they'll deceive their way out in mobile too as before with SDP values. Then there is achievable clock, not important for mobile as it will still clock well against older generations. Starts to be an issue for servers as AMD brings 4GHz on all cores there. But it is absolutely needed for desktop as intel is already selling highly clocked chips out of the box. And nobody wants to pay for side grade on CPU.

#5589228

H83

2018-09-26 17:27

cryohellinc:

If Intel financed their dev teams more, instead of bribing HP and other manufacturers to offer "Intel only" products, I think we might have seen by now Intel 7nm. Sure they have no other option but 14nm right now, but at least we could have seen a shrink to at least 12nm in a form of revision.

I´ve read somewhere that Intel is indeed planing a 12nm process as a backup plan for the fail/mess of the 10nm, don´t remember where. As for a 7nm process, i think that´s out of Intel´s reach for the near future specially when they can´t get their 10nm working properly...

#5589234

tunejunky

2018-09-26 17:38

H83:

I´ve read somewhere that Intel is indeed planing a 12nm process as a backup plan for the fail/mess of the 10nm, don´t remember where. As for a 7nm process, i think that´s out of Intel´s reach for the near future specially when they can´t get their 10nm working properly...

i don't disagree with your reasoning, just wanted to give you pertinent info. pitch size (nanometers) is non-standard due to density. Intel's 10nm = TSMC 7nm so Intel going to an Intel 7nm is precisely the same as TSMC going to a 3nm process...three to five years. i'm fully on the gripe train re:Intel, this is not for excuse making, it's for the correct info

#5589362

xIcarus

2018-09-27 00:35

storm83:

Intel still wipes the floor with ryzen on single core performance... If AMD manages to rival that, with ryzen 2, they COULD turn the market upside down - but only if they manage to keep the price point

If by 'wipes the floor' you mean 'about 10% faster' then yes, Intel definitely wipes the floor with Ryzen in single-threaded. Herp derp.

#5589379

vbetts

Moderator

2018-09-27 01:48

xIcarus:

If by 'wipes the floor' you mean 'about 10% faster' then yes, Intel definitely wipes the floor with Ryzen in single-threaded. Herp derp.

I'm pretty sure it's not 10% faster single core? That's a lot bigger of a difference than it sounds. Also let's keep it civil.

#5589444

user1

2018-09-27 08:58

H83:

I´ve read somewhere that Intel is indeed planing a 12nm process as a backup plan for the fail/mess of the 10nm, don´t remember where. As for a 7nm process, i think that´s out of Intel´s reach for the near future specially when they can´t get their 10nm working properly...

It is suspected that intel will downgrade the 10nm process to improve yields, by targeting a lower density. it will still be 10nm transistors, just with the transistors more spreadout , making it alittle more forgiving on precision.

#5589462

sverek

2018-09-27 10:06

I wish Intel could work harder on CPU engineering, rather than wiping floors with consumers wallets XD What is it? 7 years of wiping floors? Damn, Intel. Those floors better smell like fresh $100 bills 😀

#5589652

NCC1701D

2018-09-27 17:29

cryohellinc:

No luck involved, instead, it's greed combined with delusions of grandeur. This is what happens when there is no competition. You have no innovation, and the same product is being milked nonstop.AMD has really given Intel a cold shower in that matter, as Intel felt way too comfortable at their position.

I'm not sure you really say AMD got the better of Intel and gave them a cold shoulder though. I mean, it's great that Ryzen performs well enough, but this innovation you speak of still lags behind the performance of Intel chips from many years ago. Sure, they're good bang for the buck compared to what they were, but if you built an Intel rig with a decent CPU in the last half decade, there really isn't a reason to upgrade to Ryzen unless you do professional work with your rig. I get it though. People love to hate Intel as they are the big evil corporation in their minds, but I feel this blinds a lot of people. I kind of feel bad for the brand loyal people that bought FX processors to save a few hundred bucks at the cost of performance for all those years.

#5589660

cryohellinc

2018-09-27 17:39

NCC1701D:

I'm not sure you really say AMD got the better of Intel and gave them a cold shoulder though. I mean, it's great that Ryzen performs well enough, but this innovation you speak of still lags behind the performance of Intel chips from many years ago. Sure, they're good bang for the buck compared to what they were, but if you built an Intel rig with a decent CPU in the last half decade, there really isn't a reason to upgrade to Ryzen unless you do professional work with your rig. I get it though. People love to hate Intel as they are the big evil corporation in their minds, but I feel this blinds a lot of people. I kind of feel bad for the brand loyal people that bought FX processors to save a few hundred bucks at the cost of performance for all those years.

Nothing to do with hate. Business is business and Intel had the lead, however, they have abused their position instead of heavily investing into development. In theory, with Intel's lead 5-6 years ago, their financing, connections and influence, by now they could have been 10 years ahead of AMD. Instead of abused their position to maximize income, meanwhile, AMD developed. I never understood fanboys, personally, I go for the best solution in my opinion. Intel can still make 180 turnaround next year, however, as of right now AMD seems as more innovative and attractive option. At least IMO.

#5589681

H83

2018-09-27 17:59

cryohellinc:

Nothing to do with hate. Business is business and Intel had the lead, however, they have abused their position instead of heavily investing into development. In theory, with Intel's lead 5-6 years ago, their financing, connections and influence, by now they could have been 10 years ahead of AMD. Instead of abused their position to maximize income, meanwhile, AMD developed. I never understood fanboys, personally, I go for the best solution in my opinion. Intel can still make 180 turnaround next year, however, as of right now AMD seems as more innovative and attractive option. At least IMO.

Could they??? We all know Intel abused their dominant position and stalled progress because of it but we are reaching a wall in terms of process nodes and performance that simply can´t be overcome just by trowing money at it. The perfect example is Intel´s 10nm process, they have spent billions in R&D, equipment and manpower and all they have to show is... a hand full of nothing?... They could have a decent lead over AMD but nothing else in my opinion.

#5589683

cryohellinc

2018-09-27 18:03

H83:

Could they??? We all know Intel abused their dominant position and stalled progress because of it but we are reaching a wall in terms of process nodes and performance that simply can´t be overcome just by trowing money at it. The perfect example is Intel´s 10nm process, they have spent billions in R&D, equipment and manpower and all they have to show is... a hand full of nothing?... They could have a decent lead over AMD but nothing else in my opinion.

There is always room for improvement. I was reading that even if potentially we can get to 1nm, afterwards there are other shrink options and stacking options followed by god-knows-what in the future. Budget isn't everything, as money can be easily wasted, which is exactly the case with Intel.

#5589699

tsunami231

2018-09-27 18:20

Hilbert Hagedoorn:

So many Intel slides leak in Asia, and a new one has surfaced indicating that Ice Lake for mainstream processors has been delayed towards 2020. That by itself isn't news as everybody expected that, ... Ice Lake for Mainstream Delayed to 2020

I am at a lose as to what Intel is doing, do they truely beleive the there cpu on the market still?

SamuelL421:

I'm still on X58 as well, I just ordered a TR 2950X a few days ago. I was done waiting for Intel to stop being awful - X58 is the best platform I have ever used but they are not the same company they were between (roughly) 2006 to 2013. Everything after sandy/ivy bridge has been increasingly incremental changes to CPUs, swapping solder for paste under the IHS, forcing new platforms with essentially no new features (looking at you Z170, 270, 370...), gouging prices on HEDT, etc, etc, etc. In short, I'm going AMD not because they are so much better, but more so because Intel has gotten that much worse 😛

I'm pretty sure x58 platform is worse build I ever had as far issue went, the i7 -920 killer cpu though, atlest till I replaced it with the 6700k build, it gona be years before i bother to make new build though if ever consider the fact prices on cpu and gpu are going stupid just like dram, but hey SSD prices are going down now o_O

#5589768

H83

2018-09-27 21:28

cryohellinc:

There is always room for improvement. I was reading that even if potentially we can get to 1nm, afterwards there are other shrink options and stacking options followed by god-knows-what in the future. Budget isn't everything, as money can be easily wasted, which is exactly the case with Intel.

Agree but in the case of Intel´s 10nm process it seems a question of being really hard.

austin865a:

Serious question, why does the die size mater? I don't think any user would care what the die size was if the chip preformed well, sells at a good price and isn't a furnace.

For a normal user, smaller dies make little difference but for companies it makes a big difference because they are cheaper leading to more profits. Smaller nodes are another question.

#5589783

user1

2018-09-27 22:38

austin865a:

Serious question, why does the die size mater? I don't think any user would care what the die size was if the chip preformed well, sells at a good price and isn't a furnace.

basically all chips are made on what are called wafers, a sillicon disc , most wafers are 300mm in diameter, the smaller the chip, the more chips you can make per wafer, it also lowers the chances any individual chip will be defective. more chips per wafer naturally reduces the cost since you need less fab time per chip(the main cost) and need less raw material per chip.

#5589975

PrMinisterGR

2018-09-28 13:42

vbetts:

I'm pretty sure it's not 10% faster single core? That's a lot bigger of a difference than it sounds. Also let's keep it civil.

I would actually argue that a single Zen core, most likely has equal or better IPC than any of the Lakes. Intel CPUs at the moment are on a monolithic die, which gives them no latency penalties for inter-CCX communication, and they are also much higher clocked. A lot of people also forget the importance of compiler optimizations, and that most of the industry is using the Intel C compiler for performance. Intel will have to eventually use optimizations for Zen in it (they are compelled by a court order :P ), but if you weigh all that in, and in the imaginary world where it is core vs core in the same frequency, I can actually see Zen being faster, or with much better power consumption, at least.

#5590047

tunejunky

2018-09-28 16:35

for all of the people hung up on ipc, Ryzen 2 will unquestionably be higher than anything Intel will be able to provide in the next two years. just the facts from revised earnings and outlook from Intel itself. the delay in 14nm production will be ironed out within the next six to ten months, leaving Intel all geared up for 14nm when AMD introduces 7nm to the market. and obtw, any lowering of density on Intel's 10nm process will create an inferior product vs. TSMC 7nm. right now, with the density of the 10nm unchanged, they are equivalent but if you neuter the 10nm then AMD will reign supreme everywhere it counts.