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AMD NAVI 12 chip intended for RX 5800 ?
The recently released Radeon RX 5700 have been well received, and quite frankly are nice performing products. But of course there will be an RX 5800 series as well, and these would be faster. That chip would be NAVI 12.
Some web claim Navi 12 should offer competition for the TU104 of the RTX 2070 Super, 2080 and 2080 Super. It would be a larger chip ( more transistors). Twitter fanatic Komachi stumbled into it. Of course, the if, when and how is not known at all. Let alone when released and a price.
EK-Vector Blocks Engineered for AMD Navi GPUs - 07/08/2019 08:10 AM
EK is releasing two EK-Vector Radeon RX 5700 +XT water blocks that are compatible with reference design Radeon RX 5700 and 5700 XT graphics cards. This efficient and elegant-looking cooling will allow...
Sapphire Technology Product Manager Spills Some Beans on AMD NAVI - 05/21/2019 09:28 AM
The actual page with information has been taken offline already but in an interview with a Sapphire Technology Product Manager at AMD 50 Gathering in China Product Manager Leo and Public Relations Di...
AMD Navi delayed towards October 2019? - 02/11/2019 09:44 AM
After last weeks 7nm VEGA20 aka Radeon VII release, it is now time fo focus on the mainstream segment for AMD. And that means the next in line is NAVI. NAVI would be released this year already. Howev...
AMD Navi spotted in MacOS Mojave - 01/21/2019 04:36 PM
it took a bit of seeking, but entries of AMDs next-gen Navi has surfaced in the Mojave MacOS version 14.2 as website Tonymacx86 spotted. As mentioned it took a bit of seeking, as the entries are ...
AMD NAVI would see three video card models, $249 RX 3080 close to RTX 2070 - 12/06/2018 10:11 AM
Quite a bit of information leaked onto the web over the last day or so, whether or not that information is correct remains to be seen. However, more info surfaced and it entails the pending GPU launch...
JonasBeckman
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#5695376 Posted on: 07/30/2019 10:23 AM
Wonder if that's going to be the 60 something compute units card then as a upscale of RDNA1 and Navi10 in-between the RDNA2 and Navi20 rumors for next year if that's still happening.
Would be interesting to see how well a larger chip with more of these cores could compare and how well Navi at least for this first version of it will scale though I guess the issues with the Fury and Vega have mostly been resolved other than from what I am reading memory still being something of a bottleneck for the cards.
Clock speeds and voltage will also be a thing if it's going to be 1.2v or higher or a lower clock speed and how much will clock speed affect performance with the additional cores now helping out.
(And what happens when a user just ticks off another -50 to -100mv in Wattman ha ha, so far it looks like that has remained almost unchanged and it mostly just makes a minimal difference to max boost speed but sustains higher average boost.)
EDIT: Hmm I guess Phoronix and other sources also don't have any info yet from the Linux driver other than maybe the bare basics with device ID's but that might give some insight into the rest of the hardware though perhaps AMD will be faster with a full announcement for when this launches.
Still room for a 5900 too although that's entirely up in the air I guess or a 6000 refresh with the next GPU model if they're making additional tweaks to RDNA next and whatever else.
EDIT: Perhaps it could go higher now too but I assume there is some point where it's not as efficient anymore plus the die size for pushing for something like doubling the existing 40 CU's to 80 though it'll be fun to see how the GPU performs and what the specs will be once info is available on these.
Wonder if that's going to be the 60 something compute units card then as a upscale of RDNA1 and Navi10 in-between the RDNA2 and Navi20 rumors for next year if that's still happening.
Would be interesting to see how well a larger chip with more of these cores could compare and how well Navi at least for this first version of it will scale though I guess the issues with the Fury and Vega have mostly been resolved other than from what I am reading memory still being something of a bottleneck for the cards.
Clock speeds and voltage will also be a thing if it's going to be 1.2v or higher or a lower clock speed and how much will clock speed affect performance with the additional cores now helping out.
(And what happens when a user just ticks off another -50 to -100mv in Wattman ha ha, so far it looks like that has remained almost unchanged and it mostly just makes a minimal difference to max boost speed but sustains higher average boost.)
EDIT: Hmm I guess Phoronix and other sources also don't have any info yet from the Linux driver other than maybe the bare basics with device ID's but that might give some insight into the rest of the hardware though perhaps AMD will be faster with a full announcement for when this launches.
Still room for a 5900 too although that's entirely up in the air I guess or a 6000 refresh with the next GPU model if they're making additional tweaks to RDNA next and whatever else.
EDIT: Perhaps it could go higher now too but I assume there is some point where it's not as efficient anymore plus the die size for pushing for something like doubling the existing 40 CU's to 80 though it'll be fun to see how the GPU performs and what the specs will be once info is available on these.
Yogi
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#5695397 Posted on: 07/30/2019 11:52 AM
I suspect that by the time this "Navi 12" hits the market Nvidia will probably be in the process of taping out the 3xxx series. I hope AMD aims their sights a bit higher than the 2080s'
by My calculations 5800XT is the card that will compete with 2080-2080S at 599$ . If AMD brings these number to life , NV 2000 series are finished.
I suspect that by the time this "Navi 12" hits the market Nvidia will probably be in the process of taping out the 3xxx series. I hope AMD aims their sights a bit higher than the 2080s'
Fox2232
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Posts: 9469
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#5695399 Posted on: 07/30/2019 12:05 PM
For competitiveness, important part is performance per transistor, per clock at price comparable manufacturing node and achievable clock. Navi surely is clocker. And power is actually not bad.
Navi is currently in better position over Turing except total power draw at peak clock. But thing is that it looks "bad" only because it can clock that high. Bigger GPUs will clock lower even while still being capable to reach 2GHz and more due to power targets.
My 5700 XT clocks to 2GHz at 1.075V And I just thrown that value there. Therefore it may reach it even with lower voltage.
I'll look in time for way to enforce static clock and voltage. To know what is minimal voltage required at 1GHz, 1.2GHz, 1.4GHz, ... This will provide further insight into what can be done and where is optimal clock to power draw point.
I suspect that by the time this "Navi 12" hits the market Nvidia will probably be in the process of taping out the 3xxx series. I hope AMD aims their sights a bit higher than the 2080s'
For competitiveness, important part is performance per transistor, per clock at price comparable manufacturing node and achievable clock. Navi surely is clocker. And power is actually not bad.
Navi is currently in better position over Turing except total power draw at peak clock. But thing is that it looks "bad" only because it can clock that high. Bigger GPUs will clock lower even while still being capable to reach 2GHz and more due to power targets.
My 5700 XT clocks to 2GHz at 1.075V And I just thrown that value there. Therefore it may reach it even with lower voltage.
I'll look in time for way to enforce static clock and voltage. To know what is minimal voltage required at 1GHz, 1.2GHz, 1.4GHz, ... This will provide further insight into what can be done and where is optimal clock to power draw point.
Jagman
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#5695424 Posted on: 07/30/2019 01:52 PM
@Fox2232 Are you on a blower style cooler still or have you modded it? And do you play Hell Let Loose?
I've got an Arctic Accelero Xtreme IV coming shortly and will probably buy the 5700XT blower style anyway, so I was wondering about your overall experience.... Thanks in advance
@Fox2232 Are you on a blower style cooler still or have you modded it? And do you play Hell Let Loose?
I've got an Arctic Accelero Xtreme IV coming shortly and will probably buy the 5700XT blower style anyway, so I was wondering about your overall experience.... Thanks in advance
Loophole35
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#5695427 Posted on: 07/30/2019 01:56 PM
For competitiveness, important part is performance per transistor, per clock at price comparable manufacturing node and achievable clock. Navi surely is clocker. And power is actually not bad.
Navi is currently in better position over Turing except total power draw at peak clock. But thing is that it looks "bad" only because it can clock that high. Bigger GPUs will clock lower even while still being capable to reach 2GHz and more due to power targets.
My 5700 XT clocks to 2GHz at 1.075V And I just thrown that value there. Therefore it may reach it even with lower voltage.
I'll look in time for way to enforce static clock and voltage. To know what is minimal voltage required at 1GHz, 1.2GHz, 1.4GHz, ... This will provide further insight into what can be done and where is optimal clock to power draw point.
No actually the only things that matter are performance per dollar, performance per watt (for heat and noise only) and features. Navi wins the first category, AMD and Nvidia are tied on the second and Nvidia wins features. This is all out of the box however. No one should ever buy a product and expect it to tweak outside of stock. So it’s actually a good time to be a consumer in this space. Things are about to get interesting.
For competitiveness, important part is performance per transistor, per clock at price comparable manufacturing node and achievable clock. Navi surely is clocker. And power is actually not bad.
Navi is currently in better position over Turing except total power draw at peak clock. But thing is that it looks "bad" only because it can clock that high. Bigger GPUs will clock lower even while still being capable to reach 2GHz and more due to power targets.
My 5700 XT clocks to 2GHz at 1.075V And I just thrown that value there. Therefore it may reach it even with lower voltage.
I'll look in time for way to enforce static clock and voltage. To know what is minimal voltage required at 1GHz, 1.2GHz, 1.4GHz, ... This will provide further insight into what can be done and where is optimal clock to power draw point.
No actually the only things that matter are performance per dollar, performance per watt (for heat and noise only) and features. Navi wins the first category, AMD and Nvidia are tied on the second and Nvidia wins features. This is all out of the box however. No one should ever buy a product and expect it to tweak outside of stock. So it’s actually a good time to be a consumer in this space. Things are about to get interesting.
Fox2232
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Posts: 9469
Joined: 2012-07-20
#5695470 Posted on: 07/30/2019 03:22 PM
Performance per $ (competitiveness) is consequence of "ratio" I wrote about. If card has bad performance per transistor investment at same clock or can't reach higher clock to compensate, it will result in bigger GPU that is more costly to manufacture while delivering same performance as opposition.
@Jagman : I considered Accelero Xtreme IV too. But I am not fond of "perma-glue". When I did it to HD7970 it was race against time. Felt like job for two people.
I still did not push it to limits outside of Path of exile where maxing out With GI+Shadows on Ultra is not really making visual difference, just eats fps
Here is PoE maxed out test in my hideout that is rather full of light sources:
Set.Clock Set.Voltage Actual.Clk FPS Power
1200 771 1160 45 76
1400 838 1354 52 92
1600 917 1546 59 115
1800 1011 1735 66 142
2000 1118 1938 72 185
2100 1176 2040 76 220
2150 1215 2098 77 255
No actually the only things that matter are performance per dollar, performance per watt (for heat and noise only) and features. Navi wins the first category, AMD and Nvidia are tied on the second and Nvidia wins features. This is all out of the box however. No one should ever buy a product and expect it to tweak outside of stock. So it’s actually a good time to be a consumer in this space. Things are about to get interesting.
Performance per $ (competitiveness) is consequence of "ratio" I wrote about. If card has bad performance per transistor investment at same clock or can't reach higher clock to compensate, it will result in bigger GPU that is more costly to manufacture while delivering same performance as opposition.
@Jagman : I considered Accelero Xtreme IV too. But I am not fond of "perma-glue". When I did it to HD7970 it was race against time. Felt like job for two people.
I still did not push it to limits outside of Path of exile where maxing out With GI+Shadows on Ultra is not really making visual difference, just eats fps
Here is PoE maxed out test in my hideout that is rather full of light sources:
Set.Clock Set.Voltage Actual.Clk FPS Power
1200 771 1160 45 76
1400 838 1354 52 92
1600 917 1546 59 115
1800 1011 1735 66 142
2000 1118 1938 72 185
2100 1176 2040 76 220
2150 1215 2098 77 255
Loophole35
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#5695488 Posted on: 07/30/2019 04:09 PM
Performance per $ (competitiveness) is consequence of "ratio" I wrote about. If card has bad performance per transistor investment at same clock or can't reach higher clock to compensate, it will result in bigger GPU that is more costly to manufacture while delivering same performance as opposition.
That does not always translate to the end user though which is why MSRP is more important. You can play your oral gymnastics all you want but the bottom line is cost to end user.
Performance per $ (competitiveness) is consequence of "ratio" I wrote about. If card has bad performance per transistor investment at same clock or can't reach higher clock to compensate, it will result in bigger GPU that is more costly to manufacture while delivering same performance as opposition.
That does not always translate to the end user though which is why MSRP is more important. You can play your oral gymnastics all you want but the bottom line is cost to end user.
MonstroMart
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Posts: 489
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Posts: 489
Joined: 2006-07-06
#5695493 Posted on: 07/30/2019 04:26 PM
The recently released Radeon RX 5700 have been well received, and quite frankly are nice performing products. But of course there will be an RX 5800 series as well, and these would be faster. That chi...
AMD NAVI 12 chip intended for RX 5800 ?
No way, Jose
The recently released Radeon RX 5700 have been well received, and quite frankly are nice performing products. But of course there will be an RX 5800 series as well, and these would be faster. That chi...
AMD NAVI 12 chip intended for RX 5800 ?
No way, Jose
Fox2232
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Posts: 9469
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#5695494 Posted on: 07/30/2019 04:28 PM
It is not any kind of trickery. Imagine that there would be real price war. Those values will tell you if given GPU can be manufactured at profit in times competition is at zero or loses money by making theirs.
It is very close to feasibility.
That does not always translate to the end user though which is why MSRP is more important. You can play your oral gymnastics all you want but the bottom line is cost to end user.
It is not any kind of trickery. Imagine that there would be real price war. Those values will tell you if given GPU can be manufactured at profit in times competition is at zero or loses money by making theirs.
It is very close to feasibility.
Michal Turlik 21
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#5695521 Posted on: 07/30/2019 05:31 PM
There is one "small" thing that many of us seem to be unable to understand.
We can criticize Nvidia how much we can, me as the first one, but at least they have released all their new cards this time by letting the customers decide which one to buy.
AMD instead is making some dirty strategies here, they are releasing their products one after another sparse in time by trying to get much money as they can.
At day zero they release the 5700 xt (crap) then they go with the 5800 and then with 5900, 5950 and who knows wich others.
Not so much intelligent customers that ve bought the 5700 will surely start to think on an immediate upgrade.
AMD are not the good guys remember. They are doing business and they are doing it well thanks to subtle strategies and people that appreciate such moves.
There is one "small" thing that many of us seem to be unable to understand.
We can criticize Nvidia how much we can, me as the first one, but at least they have released all their new cards this time by letting the customers decide which one to buy.
AMD instead is making some dirty strategies here, they are releasing their products one after another sparse in time by trying to get much money as they can.
At day zero they release the 5700 xt (crap) then they go with the 5800 and then with 5900, 5950 and who knows wich others.
Not so much intelligent customers that ve bought the 5700 will surely start to think on an immediate upgrade.
AMD are not the good guys remember. They are doing business and they are doing it well thanks to subtle strategies and people that appreciate such moves.
MonstroMart
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Posts: 489
Joined: 2006-07-06
Senior Member
Posts: 489
Joined: 2006-07-06
#5695526 Posted on: 07/30/2019 05:54 PM
I don't think there's many people who think AMD is the good guy. And those who think that can just be ignored. All those companies, AMD, Intel, nVidia, Google, Microsoft, Sony, Apple, ... care about one thing. It's called money. Don't ever be fooled thinking otherwise. It's all about money for those big publicly traded companies. And as a consumer you should also care about one thing. It's also called ******* money. nVidia, AMD or Intel personally i don't give a flying ****. I'll buy whatever is best for my budget. Right now i try to not spend more than give or take 300-400$ CAD on the CPU and 500-600$ CAD on the GPU (1k total max for the two). If i would be upgrading now the RX 5700XT would be a very interesting card depending on the price of the non blower models.
I don't think there's many people who think AMD is the good guy. And those who think that can just be ignored. All those companies, AMD, Intel, nVidia, Google, Microsoft, Sony, Apple, ... care about one thing. It's called money. Don't ever be fooled thinking otherwise. It's all about money for those big publicly traded companies. And as a consumer you should also care about one thing. It's also called ******* money. nVidia, AMD or Intel personally i don't give a flying ****. I'll buy whatever is best for my budget. Right now i try to not spend more than give or take 300-400$ CAD on the CPU and 500-600$ CAD on the GPU (1k total max for the two). If i would be upgrading now the RX 5700XT would be a very interesting card depending on the price of the non blower models.
Denial
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#5695529 Posted on: 07/30/2019 05:58 PM
There is one "small" thing that many of us seem to be unable to understand.
We can criticize Nvidia how much we can, me as the first one, but at least they have released all their new cards this time by letting the customers decide which one to buy.
AMD instead is making some dirty strategies here, they are releasing their products one after another sparse in time by trying to get much money as they can.
At day zero they release the 5700 xt (crap) then they go with the 5800 and then with 5900, 5950 and who knows wich others.
Not so much intelligent customers that ve bought the 5700 will surely start to think on an immediate upgrade.
AMD are not the good guys remember. They are doing business and they are doing it well thanks to subtle strategies and people that appreciate such moves.
It's not that simple. AMD is a cash strapped company, every product launch has a massive upfront cost associated with it - from engineering, to inventory, to marketing. That's not to mention that 7nm yields were not great and the cost per transistor was higher than 12/14nm. The cost scaling of a larger Navi chip might not work against Nvidia's higher end chips until EUV or yield increase.
They are a business and these are business decisions but its not like AMD is sitting there going "lol we're not going to give our customers a choice" its more like "this is the best we can do given a bunch of constraints"
There is one "small" thing that many of us seem to be unable to understand.
We can criticize Nvidia how much we can, me as the first one, but at least they have released all their new cards this time by letting the customers decide which one to buy.
AMD instead is making some dirty strategies here, they are releasing their products one after another sparse in time by trying to get much money as they can.
At day zero they release the 5700 xt (crap) then they go with the 5800 and then with 5900, 5950 and who knows wich others.
Not so much intelligent customers that ve bought the 5700 will surely start to think on an immediate upgrade.
AMD are not the good guys remember. They are doing business and they are doing it well thanks to subtle strategies and people that appreciate such moves.
It's not that simple. AMD is a cash strapped company, every product launch has a massive upfront cost associated with it - from engineering, to inventory, to marketing. That's not to mention that 7nm yields were not great and the cost per transistor was higher than 12/14nm. The cost scaling of a larger Navi chip might not work against Nvidia's higher end chips until EUV or yield increase.
They are a business and these are business decisions but its not like AMD is sitting there going "lol we're not going to give our customers a choice" its more like "this is the best we can do given a bunch of constraints"
H83
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#5695540 Posted on: 07/30/2019 06:24 PM
There is one "small" thing that many of us seem to be unable to understand.
We can criticize Nvidia how much we can, me as the first one, but at least they have released all their new cards this time by letting the customers decide which one to buy.
AMD instead is making some dirty strategies here, they are releasing their products one after another sparse in time by trying to get much money as they can.
At day zero they release the 5700 xt (crap) then they go with the 5800 and then with 5900, 5950 and who knows wich others.
Not so much intelligent customers that ve bought the 5700 will surely start to think on an immediate upgrade.
AMD are not the good guys remember. They are doing business and they are doing it well thanks to subtle strategies and people that appreciate such moves.
Both Nvidia and AMD have done this several times in the past and it´s perfectly normal! It´s very rare for any of them to release the entire productt stack at the same time. Not to mention everyone knows that there´s going to be something faster then the 5700xt... and something slower too!
There is one "small" thing that many of us seem to be unable to understand.
We can criticize Nvidia how much we can, me as the first one, but at least they have released all their new cards this time by letting the customers decide which one to buy.
AMD instead is making some dirty strategies here, they are releasing their products one after another sparse in time by trying to get much money as they can.
At day zero they release the 5700 xt (crap) then they go with the 5800 and then with 5900, 5950 and who knows wich others.
Not so much intelligent customers that ve bought the 5700 will surely start to think on an immediate upgrade.
AMD are not the good guys remember. They are doing business and they are doing it well thanks to subtle strategies and people that appreciate such moves.
Both Nvidia and AMD have done this several times in the past and it´s perfectly normal! It´s very rare for any of them to release the entire productt stack at the same time. Not to mention everyone knows that there´s going to be something faster then the 5700xt... and something slower too!
Ssateneth
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#5695555 Posted on: 07/30/2019 07:26 PM
There is one "small" thing that many of us seem to be unable to understand.
We can criticize Nvidia how much we can, me as the first one, but at least they have released all their new cards this time by letting the customers decide which one to buy.
AMD instead is making some dirty strategies here, they are releasing their products one after another sparse in time by trying to get much money as they can.
At day zero they release the 5700 xt (crap) then they go with the 5800 and then with 5900, 5950 and who knows wich others.
Not so much intelligent customers that ve bought the 5700 will surely start to think on an immediate upgrade.
AMD are not the good guys remember. They are doing business and they are doing it well thanks to subtle strategies and people that appreciate such moves.
Oh, I'm sorry. You said you like paying $1000 for *80 ti? What's next gen? $1500 for *80 ti and $1000 for *80 non-ti? That's what happens with no competition. Or you end up with the same product refreshed year after year with only tiny increase in performance and an increasing price tag, because the company has no reason to innovate. Why make something better if there's nothing else threatening your top-dog position in the market?
Be glad AMD is releasing anything at all. We would not have gotten the "super" release without it (which IMO is a stupid release anyways)
There is one "small" thing that many of us seem to be unable to understand.
We can criticize Nvidia how much we can, me as the first one, but at least they have released all their new cards this time by letting the customers decide which one to buy.
AMD instead is making some dirty strategies here, they are releasing their products one after another sparse in time by trying to get much money as they can.
At day zero they release the 5700 xt (crap) then they go with the 5800 and then with 5900, 5950 and who knows wich others.
Not so much intelligent customers that ve bought the 5700 will surely start to think on an immediate upgrade.
AMD are not the good guys remember. They are doing business and they are doing it well thanks to subtle strategies and people that appreciate such moves.
Oh, I'm sorry. You said you like paying $1000 for *80 ti? What's next gen? $1500 for *80 ti and $1000 for *80 non-ti? That's what happens with no competition. Or you end up with the same product refreshed year after year with only tiny increase in performance and an increasing price tag, because the company has no reason to innovate. Why make something better if there's nothing else threatening your top-dog position in the market?
Be glad AMD is releasing anything at all. We would not have gotten the "super" release without it (which IMO is a stupid release anyways)
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by My calculations 5800XT is the card that will compete with 2080-2080S at 599$ . If AMD brings these number to life , NV 2000 series are finished.