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Guru3D Rig of the Month - December 2019
Upcoming Geforce GTX Volta cards Use GDDR5X not HBM2
We've written a lot back and forth about GDDR5X versus HBM2 (and GDDR6 these days). Nvidia did not place all their eggs in one basket, AMD pretty much did so for high-end. That being the main and root cause of delays as HBM2 is difficult to fab and expensive. As it stands now, opcoming consumer GeForce cards based on Volta will not use HBM2.
This is a new claim that originates from Fudzilla, who states that this info came from well-informed sources. I tend to agree as nothing is pointing or indicating towards HBM2 from Nvidia at this moment in time. From the looks of it, small and compact HBM2 memory simply is too expensive for consumer products. Nvidia does use HBM2 on its GV100-gpu, but much like what happened with Pascal, here again they will revert to GDDR5X memory for the consumer parts.
While HBM2 might seem to offer better memory-bus width, latency and lower voltages, it seems harder to fab and implement and likely thus is more costly and complicated to use than expected. Just look at the massive AMD Radeon RX Vega (consumer) delay, this likely is due to the limited availability of HBM2. Meanwhile Nvidia has been plastering GDDR5X in their recent high-end SKUs. GDDR5X still rocks hard this year. Next to HBM2, GDDR6 is the new thing for 2018. The new graphics memory type will offer up to 16Gb (2GB) per IC. So eight ICs would already get you to 16 GB of graphics memory.
Nvidia could make use of SK Hynix and/or Micron GDDR5X memory.
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NewTRUMP Order
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#5443733 Posted on: 06/16/2017 02:28 PM
Smart business plan: Make best product possible, with the cheapest products available. What do I care what memory is being used if it works, doesn't cost me my second born and my favorite dog?
Smart business plan: Make best product possible, with the cheapest products available. What do I care what memory is being used if it works, doesn't cost me my second born and my favorite dog?
Lane
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#5443735 Posted on: 06/16/2017 02:33 PM
I was most think that Volta will use GDDR6 ( on consumer gaming parts ), not GDDR5x...
Anyway, we should certainly see GV104 first, and if they want release them this year, GDDR5x is the only solution. ( an with same rate speed than today, as i dont think they could make evolve GDDR5x much higher )
I was most think that Volta will use GDDR6 ( on consumer gaming parts ), not GDDR5x...
Anyway, we should certainly see GV104 first, and if they want release them this year, GDDR5x is the only solution. ( an with same rate speed than today, as i dont think they could make evolve GDDR5x much higher )
SirDremor
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#5443738 Posted on: 06/16/2017 02:36 PM
HBM doesn't provide any real benefits to consumer products while costing a kidney and causing your product to be delayed for more than a year, so no surprises Nvidia is not rushing to use it.
BTW, this "bandwidth" advantage of HBM is a myth.
True it HAS advantage in 1-chip-vs-1-chip design, but we need to look at the whole package (and consider if such bandwidth is actually needed at all...).
Just look at 1080 TI with GDDR5X having more memory bandwidth than unreleased Vega with HBM2.
HBM doesn't provide any real benefits to consumer products while costing a kidney and causing your product to be delayed for more than a year, so no surprises Nvidia is not rushing to use it.
BTW, this "bandwidth" advantage of HBM is a myth.
True it HAS advantage in 1-chip-vs-1-chip design, but we need to look at the whole package (and consider if such bandwidth is actually needed at all...).
Just look at 1080 TI with GDDR5X having more memory bandwidth than unreleased Vega with HBM2.
RealNC
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#5443743 Posted on: 06/16/2017 02:42 PM
Since 4K will obviously be the target for the upcoming Volta cards, NVidia had better optimize memory I/O even further if they stick to GDDR.
MSAA seems to be dead, so they will probably get away with this just fine.
Since 4K will obviously be the target for the upcoming Volta cards, NVidia had better optimize memory I/O even further if they stick to GDDR.
MSAA seems to be dead, so they will probably get away with this just fine.
Prince Valiant
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#5443748 Posted on: 06/16/2017 02:56 PM
Since 4K will obviously be the target for the upcoming Volta cards, NVidia had better optimize memory I/O even further if they stick to GDDR.
MSAA seems to be dead, so they will probably get away with this just fine.
I wish FXAA would go find a quiet corner to die in.
Since 4K will obviously be the target for the upcoming Volta cards, NVidia had better optimize memory I/O even further if they stick to GDDR.
MSAA seems to be dead, so they will probably get away with this just fine.
I wish FXAA would go find a quiet corner to die in.
The Commenter
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#5443758 Posted on: 06/16/2017 03:11 PM
Trust me it has benefits that Volta just will not have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85ProuqAof0
Trust me it has benefits that Volta just will not have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85ProuqAof0
Denial
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#5443762 Posted on: 06/16/2017 03:19 PM
Trust me it has benefits that Volta just will not have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85ProuqAof0
Increased framerates when you run out of VRAM is not something I'd consider must have - just give the card enough VRAM in the first place.
Regardless, I think everyone knows HBM2 has benefits, the question is whether those benefits is worth the increased cost, potential delays, etc that seem to stem from using it. In gaming, I personally don't see the value.
Trust me it has benefits that Volta just will not have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85ProuqAof0
Increased framerates when you run out of VRAM is not something I'd consider must have - just give the card enough VRAM in the first place.
Regardless, I think everyone knows HBM2 has benefits, the question is whether those benefits is worth the increased cost, potential delays, etc that seem to stem from using it. In gaming, I personally don't see the value.
Rich_Guy
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#5443768 Posted on: 06/16/2017 03:44 PM
GeForce cards are their gaming cards, so don't need it, they only use HBM on their data centre cards (Teslas), where it is.
GeForce cards are their gaming cards, so don't need it, they only use HBM on their data centre cards (Teslas), where it is.
rl66
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#5443782 Posted on: 06/16/2017 04:06 PM
Agree, the HBM tesla is on request and cost... way too much for a gaming GPU.
Also aviability of HBM is an issue (for both NVidia and AMD despite this one is the 1st on the list) and so the price.
Sometime technical evolution is hard
...
GeForce cards are their gaming cards, so don't need it, they only use HBM on their data centre cards (Teslas), where it is.
Agree, the HBM tesla is on request and cost... way too much for a gaming GPU.
Also aviability of HBM is an issue (for both NVidia and AMD despite this one is the 1st on the list) and so the price.
Sometime technical evolution is hard
...
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#5443783 Posted on: 06/16/2017 04:09 PM
Increased framerates when you run out of VRAM is not something I'd consider must have - just give the card enough VRAM in the first place.
Regardless, I think everyone knows HBM2 has benefits, the question is whether those benefits is worth the increased cost, potential delays, etc that seem to stem from using it. In gaming, I personally don't see the value.
I believe that this kind of design will also have an impact whenever there is VRAM<->RAM communication, and not only when you run out of VRAM. That could have a lot of interesting implications on microstutter across the board.
Increased framerates when you run out of VRAM is not something I'd consider must have - just give the card enough VRAM in the first place.
Regardless, I think everyone knows HBM2 has benefits, the question is whether those benefits is worth the increased cost, potential delays, etc that seem to stem from using it. In gaming, I personally don't see the value.
I believe that this kind of design will also have an impact whenever there is VRAM<->RAM communication, and not only when you run out of VRAM. That could have a lot of interesting implications on microstutter across the board.
rl66
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#5443785 Posted on: 06/16/2017 04:14 PM
It's probably cheaper, plus AMD has been working with HBM for awhile we know. Nvidia still is probably getting their feet wet with it.
Kind of reminds me of a certain war between two optical storage formats just a few years back...
AMD have only a few advantage on it, NVidia have worked on HBM the 1st and decided to not use it, and worked with HBM2 (well... to reduce cost they need to make it sold to any one )
About optical we should remind that both get obsolete and never sold much (one is dead, and other is nearly dead: draw game) outsider like cloud and VOD rise and win.
It's probably cheaper, plus AMD has been working with HBM for awhile we know. Nvidia still is probably getting their feet wet with it.
Kind of reminds me of a certain war between two optical storage formats just a few years back...
AMD have only a few advantage on it, NVidia have worked on HBM the 1st and decided to not use it, and worked with HBM2 (well... to reduce cost they need to make it sold to any one
)
About optical we should remind that both get obsolete and never sold much (one is dead, and other is nearly dead: draw game) outsider like cloud and VOD rise and win.
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#5443796 Posted on: 06/16/2017 04:39 PM
TXAA is the future, and SMAA is used a lot more than FXAA.
Volta will probably ship with 5X or 6. They can probably get away with 5X if it can hit the same speed as 6.
TXAA is the future, and SMAA is used a lot more than FXAA.
Volta will probably ship with 5X or 6. They can probably get away with 5X if it can hit the same speed as 6.
RealNC
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#5443807 Posted on: 06/16/2017 05:05 PM
Nope. TXAA is MSAA with temporal filters on top. Games that can't support MSAA also can't support TXAA. If MSAA is dead, so is TXAA.
Maybe you meant to say TAA, which is post-process temporal AA. It's not bad at 4K. It is a bit blurry, but at this point, it's the only thing that gets rid of shimmering, so I'll take it.
TXAA is the future
Nope. TXAA is MSAA with temporal filters on top. Games that can't support MSAA also can't support TXAA. If MSAA is dead, so is TXAA.
Maybe you meant to say TAA, which is post-process temporal AA. It's not bad at 4K. It is a bit blurry, but at this point, it's the only thing that gets rid of shimmering, so I'll take it.
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#5443827 Posted on: 06/16/2017 05:59 PM
I'm a fan of Ryzen but Vega is 6 months late to be relevant.
Nvidia has HBM products on their top products for companies, their consumer GPU's don't use them because there's no point on thinning the margin of gains with more expensive tech when you can have the same performance for cheap.
HBM have potential to be great, but right now is dragging AMD GPU division down real time!
Wrong, because adding more ram is expensive and if you can lift the physical limit for developers with intelligent controllers and software, everyone can benefit from cheaper products and more features!
Nvidia still is probably getting their feet wet with it.
I'm a fan of Ryzen but Vega is 6 months late to be relevant.
Nvidia has HBM products on their top products for companies, their consumer GPU's don't use them because there's no point on thinning the margin of gains with more expensive tech when you can have the same performance for cheap.
HBM have potential to be great, but right now is dragging AMD GPU division down real time!
Increased framerates when you run out of VRAM is not something I'd consider must have - just give the card enough VRAM in the first place.
Wrong, because adding more ram is expensive and if you can lift the physical limit for developers with intelligent controllers and software, everyone can benefit from cheaper products and more features!
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It's probably cheaper, plus AMD has been working with HBM for awhile we know. Nvidia still is probably getting their feet wet with it.
Kind of reminds me of a certain war between two optical storage formats just a few years back...