Samsung sees no future for OLED TVs

#5266892 Posted on: 05/04/2016 04:13 PM

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i havent checking LG OLED TV... but i am sure samsung TVs prices is higher than LG at least in my area

now samsung said producing oled with latest tech is more expensive true
if they sell it, it will be even more expensive that current lineup
which means more less consumer bought it too...

for a mass production, no matter if it more expensive to produce, as long consumer keep buying it, they will produce it... so to me its more about price&consumer demand than other else

and about oled is durability... how much it more durable than other display tech.
from what i read oled blue pixel lifespan is shorter

for smartphone most people change every like 2-3years... even maker giving free upgrade/exchange nowdays... so its no problem for user
but for TV... i believe most people want their TV last at least 5years of standard daily usage even more

#5266908 Posted on: 05/04/2016 04:43 PM

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So OLED is like 15 years away from being perfect?

I had hoped for an OLED Monitor in about 3-4 years from now. But i guess we will be with Grey Blacks for a little longer.

just get a UHD screen with local dimming.
another reason why im getting the M43C1, and in game mode input lag is acceptable.

#5266914 Posted on: 05/04/2016 04:55 PM

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OLED is ideal for small-scale and/or flexible devices. I agree with Samsung that, considering the costs and downsides, there's no compelling reason to make an OLED TV.

Makes me wonder though - why not try merging OLED with LCD? The primary advantages of OLED are physical durability, flexibility, contrast ratio, power efficiency, and depth. But if they created a "black and white" OLED screen and put a color LCD on top, all you'd lose is the physical durability and flexibility. By merging the 2 technologies, you'd still get something very power efficient and thin and you'd get the advantage of amazing contrast values along with a very responsive display. The OLED display would basically act like a dynamic backlight. The human eye kind of works like this but in reverse.

#5266922 Posted on: 05/04/2016 05:23 PM

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I just wanted to share this video whit you guys.

LG's 1mm OLED Wallpaper TV

LG is making great progress whit there OLED, and yes i am waiting for that first PC monitor that has OLED. You guys don't scare me away whit your silly in-burn stories. I never seen people really have those problems on any forums. So stop telling people old stories and come up whit real stuff.

#5266931 Posted on: 05/04/2016 05:50 PM

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Well it depends on when LG/Samsung/Sony fix the problems with it. For all I know LG can solve it tomorrow.

On smaller screens it should be easier to avoid manufacturing problems, in terms of consistency of the panels. But things like color shifting/burn-in are still not yet solved. Just go to any mobile phone store and look at display units for Samsung S7's. Phone is less than a few months old and most of the display models I've seen already have burn-in.

Granted there are technologies that prevent this. But I'd be pretty annoyed if I had bought a 27" OLED Monitor for $1500+ only to find the task bar burn in after a year or so.
That's total b... And you know it.
Before I got SGS6e, I checked friend's S4 and where was no burn-in at all.
Only possibility is that static image leaves its ghost for few seconds, if it was displayed for hours. But not even that did ever happen to me or people I know who have OLED variations.

Blue degrades, on phone it is not that big problem. Because one does not use it intensively for several years. But it sure is problem for monitors/TVs. As owners expect them to last 5~10 years.

#5266936 Posted on: 05/04/2016 05:56 PM

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Basically Samsung doesn't want to produce a superior product when they can sell an inferior one and make much more money. Oled TVs would kill their lcd-market and they probably couldn't charge outrageous prices for them, so their margins would be smaller, ergo they won't produce any hoping that people will still buy their crappy LCD TVs, when everyone who has even seen one live knows that oleds are at least 100 times better.

Sigh, pretty much what is happening in the PC monitor industry with companies like asus and acer buying cheap b-grade panels (plenty of dead pixels and horrible backlight bleed) and charging outrageous prices for them.

#5266950 Posted on: 05/04/2016 06:14 PM

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That's total b... And you know it.
Before I got SGS6e, I checked friend's S4 and where was no burn-in at all.
Only possibility is that static image leaves its ghost for few seconds, if it was displayed for hours. But not even that did ever happen to me or people I know who have OLED variations.

Blue degrades, on phone it is not that big problem. Because one does not use it intensively for several years. But it sure is problem for monitors/TVs. As owners expect them to last 5~10 years.

The display units get burn in because they are on 24/7 at full screen brightness. I have a Samsung Galaxy Nexus that has burn in where the status bar is, but I've had the phone for nearly 5 years now. My S4/6P are both AMOLED and have had no issues.

http://i.imgur.com/sKoQRsX.jpg

That's a picture I took of an S6 Edge in October of last year. That's six months after release.

Regardless, my point wasn't that phones are unusable due to burn in, my point is that burn-in is still a problem with OLED devices. And until a manufacturer comes out and says either "this is fixed" or "we guarantee no burn-in for 6 years" I don't think I'm willing to commit $3000 to that product.

#5266964 Posted on: 05/04/2016 06:58 PM

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You can try reading the rest of the comment, where I explain what I mean.

Yes the image quality of a stationary picture is better on OLED. Obviously contrast is higher -- colors pop more, but that's mostly because they are over-saturated. Calibrate both a Samsung/LG OLED with Spyder/Colorimeter of your choice and AgryllCMS and the colors are very similar.

I have an i1d3 and a i1pro, with Calman enthusiast. I know plenty about television calibration. (no one uses a spyder fyi, they are trash). That color "pop" comes from the contrast. The colors are not oversaturated on OLED, the lower intensity colors on LCD's are undersaturated because of poor black levels. Every single review you read on the internet is based upon a calibrated display. OLED is not inherently over-saturated. You are just someone who vaguely knows something about televisions/calibration trying to act like the resident expert (IE no one uses a Spyder to calibrate anything, and ArgyllCMS has long been the backend of DispcalGUI which is what everyone uses these days).

Watch a football game on it though -- the image ghosts. I haven't seen the 2016 LG OLEDs, but the 2015 was terrible

That is not ghosting. OLEDs have CRT level pixel response times. What you are witnessing is the product of LG's poor image processing. They use a sample and hold technique which confuses your brain on moving images. The solution would be black-frame insertion, but they have yet to implement it. Like I said in my first post, it has nothing to do with OLED, and everything to do with LG having poor image processing.


(I was going to buy one). Peak brightness is better on the Samsung and makes it more suitable for brighter rooms.

Even the 2015 OLEDS could do 400 nits. This is searing bright, and not something that any LCD prior to last years LCD sets were even capable of. The 2016 OLEDs can do 600+ nits, which is brighter than any 2015 Samsung save for the JS9500 which could only get marginally brighter.


Dark gray has Mura issues on the OLEDs as well. Grayscale uniformity is still a hit or miss on the edges (Samsung has this problem too with some sets)

This is the main issue with them currently. however, every LCD has poor screen uniformity unless they are back-lit/FALD. Grey uniformity on any LCD is generally mediocre at best.

and ABL constantly changes the brightness when watching stuff based on the content in order to avoid burn-in.

You have not witnessed one in person if this is your description of it. ABL kicks in as the APL nears 100%, it is not "constantly changing brightness". The vast majority of content is lower than 50% APL, and most significantly lower (movies average in the 15%-20% range). It will curb it some if you put a full white field on the screen, as do LCD's. (look at brightness measurements on rtings at different window sizes if you don't believe me)


And yet there are still users reporting burn-in. So it's not a solved issue.

I didn't say it was a solved issue, I said that it is currently not really that bad, and is related to blue sub-pixels aging more quickly than the reds and greens, which makes it a solvable issue. We're about to start seeing laptops and monitors with OLED, which means manufacturers are making improvements. It was already better than the best plasma's from day one, and late model plasma's didn't have serious burn-in issues.

Like yeah, OLED TV's are pretty good -- but they aren't $1500 better than Samsung equivalents. Couple that with the higher manufacturing cost and Samsung's inability to get the WOLED patent -- it makes sense to me for Samsung to stick with what it's doing.

If you watch content in a dark room, they are absolutely 1500 dollars better than Samsung equivilents

#5266973 Posted on: 05/04/2016 07:16 PM

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The display units get burn in because they are on 24/7 at full screen brightness. I have a Samsung Galaxy Nexus that has burn in where the status bar is, but I've had the phone for nearly 5 years now. My S4/6P are both AMOLED and have had no issues.

http://i.imgur.com/sKoQRsX.jpg

That's a picture I took of an S6 Edge in October of last year. That's six months after release.

Regardless, my point wasn't that phones are unusable due to burn in, my point is that burn-in is still a problem with OLED devices. And until a manufacturer comes out and says either "this is fixed" or "we guarantee no burn-in for 6 years" I don't think I'm willing to commit $3000 to that product.
For me, biggest problem with amOLED screens is, that they are slow to light up and turn off light (go black again).
When I use gearVR, screen shows how slow it is by objects having trails.

Btw, that photo of burn-in, I saw better looking industrial plasma TVs which were running 24/7 showing same stuff for 10 years.
That S6e shows at least 5 distinctive patterns, that's quite some abuse for only few months.

#5266977 Posted on: 05/04/2016 07:26 PM

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I have an i1d3 and a i1pro, with Calman enthusiast. I know plenty about television calibration. (no one uses a spyder fyi, they are trash). That color "pop" comes from the contrast. The colors are not oversaturated on OLED, the lower intensity colors on LCD's are undersaturated because of poor black levels. Every single review you read on the internet is based upon a calibrated display. OLED is not inherently over-saturated. You are just someone who vaguely knows something about televisions/calibration trying to act like the resident expert (IE no one uses a Spyder to calibrate anything, and ArgyllCMS has long been the backend of DispcalGUI which is what everyone uses these days).

That is not ghosting. OLEDs have CRT level pixel response times. What you are witnessing is the product of LG's poor image processing. They use a sample and hold technique which confuses your brain on moving images. The solution would be black-frame insertion, but they have yet to implement it. Like I said in my first post, it has nothing to do with OLED, and everything to do with LG having poor image processing.

Even the 2015 OLEDS could do 400 nits. This is searing bright, and not something that any LCD prior to last years LCD sets were even capable of. The 2016 OLEDs can do 600+ nits, which is brighter than any 2015 Samsung save for the JS9500 which could only get marginally brighter.

This is the main issue with them currently. however, every LCD has poor screen uniformity unless they are back-lit/FALD. Grey uniformity on any LCD is generally mediocre at best.

You have not witnessed one in person if this is your description of it. ABL kicks in as the APL nears 100%, it is not "constantly changing brightness". The vast majority of content is lower than 50% APL, and most significantly lower (movies average in the 15%-20% range). It will curb it some if you put a full white field on the screen, as do LCD's. (look at brightness measurements on rtings at different window sizes if you don't believe me)

I didn't say it was a solved issue, I said that it is currently not really that bad, and is related to blue sub-pixels aging more quickly than the reds and greens, which makes it a solvable issue. We're about to start seeing laptops and monitors with OLED, which means manufacturers are making improvements. It was already better than the best plasma's from day one, and late model plasma's didn't have serious burn-in issues.



If you watch content in a dark room, they are absolutely 1500 dollars better than Samsung equivilents

I said Spyder because I own a Spyder from long time ago and it just happens to be the device I use to calibrate with. And I know what DispCAL is. Rtings show pre and post calibrated results for their reviews. The precalibrated results for LG's OLED TV's are definitely over-saturated. And yes, I know that contrast boosts the perceived saturation values of colors.

My knowledge of OLED's come from last years models, which at 50% ABL had a brightness of 250 -- my 8500 is 365 by comparison. I don't pretend to be a resident expert, but I do think I know a little bit more then the average person, who just comes in here and says "I want a OLED Monitor" not knowing anything about the drawbacks of OLED, especially with static images.

And I still disagree that it's $1500 better then Samsung's TV's. But then I use my TV as a fourth monitor and I use it for gaming and not just movies. Last year when I was looking, I didn't think the cost difference was worth it -- especially with the idea that I leave my desktop up on it and it's more prone to burning in. If you claim LG is making big improvements, then yeah, maybe I'll re-evaluate my opinion. Regardless, one of the biggest reasons why LG is able to pull off it's OLED feats is due to the white OLED, which is a Kodak patent they own. So I still stand by my original argument that I agree with Samsung, it's not worth them pursuing, especially if they feel they can continue to improve on LCD while keeping the cost significantly lower then OLED equivalents.

#5266994 Posted on: 05/04/2016 08:04 PM

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I had a feeling oled wasn't going to take off its only been what 10 years since they where first shown and to this day are still not feasible.

#5266998 Posted on: 05/04/2016 08:19 PM

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Over 15 years. I remember writing tech research paper on it. But it hardly matters. Back then It looked like 5 years for it to be main thing. But in that time there were only MP3 players with simplest of displays.

As long as Samsung keeps phone screens, it will continue research, but they simply do not see large screen manufacturing as feasible.

#5267001 Posted on: 05/04/2016 08:25 PM

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I mean it's obviously improved significantly in the last few years. Look at a Galaxy S2 screen compared to a Galaxy S7 screen, in terms of brightness, color accuracy, power efficiency, resolution, etc. Yeah, Pentile, but whatever, it's all like 10x better.

With VR it will probably improve even further and I expect we will see someone make a break through in terms of longevity soon enough.

I personally love OLED screens on my phones. I just don't think the cost/cons is worth the benefit on TVs, especially for my particular use case.

#5267009 Posted on: 05/04/2016 08:42 PM

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Remembering from a PBS show on OLED and the future from a few years ago, waiting on OLED based paint. The thought being that one could change the colors of what ever was painted with the stuff at will. This and then being able to have the ability to have it as a display as well (making current thought on monitors obsolete). That is the tech I want to see come to be. Samsung may see this coming so their assessment could be correct...no future in it. Question is how long is that wait going to be?

EDIT: This article is from six years ago. DuPont went nowhere with it?

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/OLED-Printing-Display-dupont-HDTV,news-6818.html

Article is from 11 years ago...guess it was a bust. Damn....
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050329140351.htm

#5267016 Posted on: 05/04/2016 08:59 PM

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Dell has built an OLED panel with killer specs & a killer pice tag of 5k.