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Review: Battlefield V: DLSS PC performance update
EA and DICE have added DLSS support for Battlefield V. Combined with a new 418.91 driver from NVIDIA we check out the benefits and disadvantages of what is called AI AA in this small first update with Battlefield V.
You can read this small one-page article right here.
Review: Metro Exodus: PC graphics performance analysis - 02/13/2019 04:01 PM
A game title of discussion and debate, yes Metro Exodus for the PC is here, and we're going to put it to the test with close to 30 graphics cards in relation to framerates, frame times and CPU scalin...
Review: Team Group Delta S TUF RGB SSD - 02/11/2019 09:44 AM
Today, we have a relatively new product from Taiwain based company Team Group to review. Part of their new collab with Asus' long lived 'TUF' lineup, this SSD brings beefy looks, RGB, and solid spe...
Review: T-Force Delta TUF Gaming RGB DDR4 3200 MHz - 02/08/2019 10:03 AM
Today, we have a kit of memory from Taiwan based firm Team Group to review. 16GB in 2x 8GB DIMMs, promising high-quality memory chips, good overclocking, and that good old 2018 trope, RGB. We'll be p...
Review: AMD Radeon VII (16GB) - 02/07/2019 03:00 PM
Today is the day we may present you the benchmark review of the all new Radeon VII. VII as in fabricated on that 7nm node. The Radeon VII is a product that has been talked about for quite a while. W...
Review: DeepCool Captain 240 PRO - 02/05/2019 11:57 AM
In this review we test the DeepCool Captain 240 PRO, the kit has been updated with an improved All-in-One Liquid cooling kit is very decent in performance for an AIO with a 240mm rad. Next to that the...
HWgeek
Senior Member
Posts: 441
Joined: 2005-04-04
Senior Member
Posts: 441
Joined: 2005-04-04
#5639680 Posted on: 02/14/2019 04:38 PM
My main complaint on DLSS is that if nVIdia chose to market it like "Better Quality at same Performance" and indeed Enabling DLSS in game resulted as Deep Learning Up-scaled image with much better quality without decreasing performance- That's Great and worth the $$, But using fancy Tech that Reduces Image Quality to Improve Performance? If I am note mistaken- this was called "Cheating" back in the days.
Also Limiting the options of when and how you can use DLSS just proves my point.
My main complaint on DLSS is that if nVIdia chose to market it like "Better Quality at same Performance" and indeed Enabling DLSS in game resulted as Deep Learning Up-scaled image with much better quality without decreasing performance- That's Great and worth the $$, But using fancy Tech that Reduces Image Quality to Improve Performance? If I am note mistaken- this was called "Cheating" back in the days.
Also Limiting the options of when and how you can use DLSS just proves my point.
Denial
Senior Member
Posts: 13235
Joined: 2004-05-16
Senior Member
Posts: 13235
Joined: 2004-05-16
#5639686 Posted on: 02/14/2019 04:59 PM
My main complaint on DLSS is that if nVIdia chose to market it like "Better Quality at same Performance" and indeed Enabling DLSS in game resulted as Deep Learning Up-scaled image with much better quality without decreasing performance- That's Great and worth the $$, But using fancy Tech that Reduces Image Quality to Improve Performance? If I am note mistaken- this was called "Cheating" back in the days.
Also Limiting the options of when and how you can use DLSS just proves my point.
Well they specifically marketed as an improved TAA. If you go and read the Siggraph whitepaper/slide from 2017 on the early versions of DLSS (Convolutional Auto-Encoder) it was basically designed as a TAA variant that gets rid of the some of the TAA motion artifact issues.
The thing about TAA though is that it's not a standard solution. Each dev integrates it differently with varying degrees of quality. FFXV for example has terrible TAA, same with Port Royal. DICE typically does a good job with their variant but they are also notorious for not allowing you to disable it. Further the issues with TAA are mostly motion issues so people comparing single frames of games aren't really looking for the things DLSS was supposed to solve in the first place.
The limitations of how/when you can use DLSS is more of an intrinsic property of how DLSS training works then nefariousness by Nvidia. They spend weeks training each resolution and RTX On vs Off has to be done in separate training sessions. Should also point out that the training is ongoing and Nvidia says they'll be delivering DLSS updates to games via Experience.
Also I don't think an option to turn something on that can potentially reduce quality for performance improvement is considered cheating.
My main complaint on DLSS is that if nVIdia chose to market it like "Better Quality at same Performance" and indeed Enabling DLSS in game resulted as Deep Learning Up-scaled image with much better quality without decreasing performance- That's Great and worth the $$, But using fancy Tech that Reduces Image Quality to Improve Performance? If I am note mistaken- this was called "Cheating" back in the days.
Also Limiting the options of when and how you can use DLSS just proves my point.
Well they specifically marketed as an improved TAA. If you go and read the Siggraph whitepaper/slide from 2017 on the early versions of DLSS (Convolutional Auto-Encoder) it was basically designed as a TAA variant that gets rid of the some of the TAA motion artifact issues.
The thing about TAA though is that it's not a standard solution. Each dev integrates it differently with varying degrees of quality. FFXV for example has terrible TAA, same with Port Royal. DICE typically does a good job with their variant but they are also notorious for not allowing you to disable it. Further the issues with TAA are mostly motion issues so people comparing single frames of games aren't really looking for the things DLSS was supposed to solve in the first place.
The limitations of how/when you can use DLSS is more of an intrinsic property of how DLSS training works then nefariousness by Nvidia. They spend weeks training each resolution and RTX On vs Off has to be done in separate training sessions. Should also point out that the training is ongoing and Nvidia says they'll be delivering DLSS updates to games via Experience.
Also I don't think an option to turn something on that can potentially reduce quality for performance improvement is considered cheating.
HWgeek
Senior Member
Posts: 441
Joined: 2005-04-04
Senior Member
Posts: 441
Joined: 2005-04-04
#5639688 Posted on: 02/14/2019 05:08 PM
Thank for the info , I do hope that in coming months we gonna see better results.
I am just worried that NV will go AI/DL route and claim FPS boost with the technology instead of improving the silicone (for example boosting performance between GTX 680/780/980/1080 ).
Thank for the info , I do hope that in coming months we gonna see better results.
I am just worried that NV will go AI/DL route and claim FPS boost with the technology instead of improving the silicone (for example boosting performance between GTX 680/780/980/1080 ).
leszy
Senior Member
Posts: 325
Joined: 2006-06-06
Senior Member
Posts: 325
Joined: 2006-06-06
#5639689 Posted on: 02/14/2019 05:09 PM
We all know that bitmaps can not be enlarged arbitrarily, because even the most perfect filter can not extract/display sub-pixel information, because it has not been saved (it simply does not exist). The same applies to upscaling. You can create the illusion of sharpness at first glance, but no anti-aliasing technique will allow you to display details that have not been rendered due to the low resolution of the rendered frame. Perhaps it's worth checking whether, in general, using high resolution textures makes sense with DLSS enabled? Maybe smaller textures will not worsen the quality of the image and will boost fps?
We all know that bitmaps can not be enlarged arbitrarily, because even the most perfect filter can not extract/display sub-pixel information, because it has not been saved (it simply does not exist). The same applies to upscaling. You can create the illusion of sharpness at first glance, but no anti-aliasing technique will allow you to display details that have not been rendered due to the low resolution of the rendered frame. Perhaps it's worth checking whether, in general, using high resolution textures makes sense with DLSS enabled? Maybe smaller textures will not worsen the quality of the image and will boost fps?
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Senior Member
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Joined: 2004-05-16
Enabling DLSS only for 4k resolutions makes no sense, obviously...but perhaps it looks a lot less blurry @ 4k--that would be my guess here. Restricting its use is certainly is no oversight. Ah, yes, the nVidia I remember so well is back! Pulling image-quality tricks, deceits, and sleights of hand, once again...! It's Back to the Future, alright....
The one thing I didn't really understand here is the difference in the comparative screen shots--the DLSS On shots show vegetation close up, while the DLSS Off screens put the vegetation in the far distance and obscured by fog. Scratching my head on that one...?
DLSS isn't restricted to 4K in BF5?
Also you keep confusing Tensor cores with RT cores. Tensor does DLSS, DLSS does not "cut frame-rate by half" RT cores do RTX/DXR - that does cut framerate. Nvidia intended Tensors to denoise the RT image but DICE doesn't use tensors at all for RT in BF5.