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Possible PCIe successor Gen-Z Reaches Version 1.0 Development Stage
A consortium of multiple (and many) technology companies have released Gen-Z Core Specification revision 1.0, the new standard has the potential and will to replace PCI-Express. It would be able to transfer hundreds of gigabytes per second, per device. The new Gen-Z would be an open and royalty-free standard.
Before we start, many companies are taking part in this project, including some very big names. Pretty much the entire industry that has any relevance is listed, but two big names are missing, being Intel and Nvidia. Originally founded AMD, ARM, Broadcom, Cray, Dell EMC, Hewlett Packard Enterprise, Huawei, IDT, Micron, Samsung, SK hynix, and Xilinx they aim to create the next generation interconnect. Currently, over 50 companies have joined up and are listed.
Much like the PCIe interface, Gen-Z is an interconnect, a way of allowing your computer components to 'talk' to each over what you might call a data-highway. E.g. A GPU or SSD to your chipset or CPU. While PCIe express 4.0 as a standard is already finished (doubles up the bandwidth over PCIe Gen 3.0), the Gen-Z consortium feels that the development rate for PCIe simply is too slow. Next to that, in this day and age workloads, have changed if you think about AI, big data, and anything HPC. PCI-Express also is limited as a point to point connection, whereas Gen-Z likely could bypass that, perhaps even talk to memory. All Gen-Z components will make use of the same connector and benefit from the standard low latency and high bandwidth.
The standard is now ready, now it's up to the industry to develop products utilizing Gen-Z, and that might actually be the biggest challenge. More information can be found at the Gen-Z website.
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Barry J
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#5521640 Posted on: 02/21/2018 10:44 AM
I like anything that pushes technology it can only help improve desktop PC's in the long run. Would be nice if all PCIE connectors were all 16x we might not need it but if hardware suppliers
new they can access that maybe they will produce faster and better hardware....... or maybe not
I like anything that pushes technology it can only help improve desktop PC's in the long run. Would be nice if all PCIE connectors were all 16x we might not need it but if hardware suppliers
new they can access that maybe they will produce faster and better hardware....... or maybe not
Fox2232
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#5521643 Posted on: 02/21/2018 10:57 AM
No Intel = No consumer products
Do we need more than what PCIe can deliver currently?
Looks like there are a few big scale computing companies in there though so might be something for the datacentre/supercomputer crowd maybe?
Yes, we need more. Once we get PCIe 5.0, bandwidth will be good enough for you to buy APU system, and add another APU into PCIe slot as add-in-card.
Imagine buying 4C/8T APU with 2048SP, and then as time passes, you would add few 4C/8T APUs with 2048SP GPU each. One may need 140W CPU socket, but if one considers year at which we'll have PCIe 5.0 ... Maybe those will be just 95W APUs, and 95W Add-In-Cards.
With great PCIe bandwidth, it may be just question of time till we see secondary system memory. IIRC there are already few projects.
Maybe even GPUs using HSA memory in another slot. And that slot may be hosting RAM + SSD as large cache.
No Intel = No consumer products
Do we need more than what PCIe can deliver currently?
Looks like there are a few big scale computing companies in there though so might be something for the datacentre/supercomputer crowd maybe?
Yes, we need more. Once we get PCIe 5.0, bandwidth will be good enough for you to buy APU system, and add another APU into PCIe slot as add-in-card.
Imagine buying 4C/8T APU with 2048SP, and then as time passes, you would add few 4C/8T APUs with 2048SP GPU each. One may need 140W CPU socket, but if one considers year at which we'll have PCIe 5.0 ... Maybe those will be just 95W APUs, and 95W Add-In-Cards.
With great PCIe bandwidth, it may be just question of time till we see secondary system memory. IIRC there are already few projects.
Maybe even GPUs using HSA memory in another slot. And that slot may be hosting RAM + SSD as large cache.
AcidSnow
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#5521664 Posted on: 02/21/2018 12:39 PM
I don't believe I've ever heard of Gen-Z. However it sounds like a great idea, and if it works royalty free, then that's a win-win. Because the savings will be passed on the the OEMs & consumers, hopefully lowering the cost of PC's in the future.
I don't believe I've ever heard of Gen-Z. However it sounds like a great idea, and if it works royalty free, then that's a win-win. Because the savings will be passed on the the OEMs & consumers, hopefully lowering the cost of PC's in the future.
Kaarme
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#5521681 Posted on: 02/21/2018 02:12 PM
When I began to read the article and got to the point where royalty free was mentioned, I knew Intel wouldn't be aboard. Nvidia as well these days loves their restricted in-house technologies, so their participation was pretty much 50-50. I guess they judged that since Intel isn't interested, it will have no private consumer future, and in the pro market Nvidia already has their proprietary NVlink, so they wouldn't want their left hand to compete with the right hand.
When I began to read the article and got to the point where royalty free was mentioned, I knew Intel wouldn't be aboard. Nvidia as well these days loves their restricted in-house technologies, so their participation was pretty much 50-50. I guess they judged that since Intel isn't interested, it will have no private consumer future, and in the pro market Nvidia already has their proprietary NVlink, so they wouldn't want their left hand to compete with the right hand.
Dragondale13
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#5521689 Posted on: 02/21/2018 02:46 PM
Great, now by the time I upgrade, the web will be filled with "Gen-Z is the way to go bro! Pci-E is dead!"
..and I'll be feeling left out
:p 
...it's Pci-E 2.0 vs 3.0 all over again !
Great, now by the time I upgrade, the web will be filled with "Gen-Z is the way to go bro! Pci-E is dead!"
..and I'll be feeling left out
:p ...it's Pci-E 2.0 vs 3.0 all over again !
warlord
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#5521691 Posted on: 02/21/2018 03:02 PM
Now Gen-Z, next should be Gen-Super and then Gen-GT (aka DragonBallZ -> Dragonball Super -> Dragonball GT), I love so much innovation without useful usage. Find me proper reasoning for this bandwidth existence in the foreseeable future. Really.
Now Gen-Z, next should be Gen-Super and then Gen-GT (aka DragonBallZ -> Dragonball Super -> Dragonball GT), I love so much innovation without useful usage. Find me proper reasoning for this bandwidth existence in the foreseeable future. Really.
Fox2232
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#5521692 Posted on: 02/21/2018 03:02 PM
Great, now by the time I upgrade, the web will be filled with "Gen-Z is the way to go bro! Pci-E is dead!"
..and I'll be feeling left out :p ...it's Pci-E 2.0 vs 3.0 all over again !
Not so much, this is like move from AGP to PCIe on graphics cards. But much more innovative.
Intel&nV are not participating from very specific reasons. This new thing is strong push towards HSA.
Early birds will have to support two platforms and invest resources with low return rate.
Intel & nV will eat legacy clients while AMD will be pushing for future. (I think it will not be so close future.)
And they'll make leap once market is large enough/proven.
Great, now by the time I upgrade, the web will be filled with "Gen-Z is the way to go bro! Pci-E is dead!"
..and I'll be feeling left out
:p ...it's Pci-E 2.0 vs 3.0 all over again !Not so much, this is like move from AGP to PCIe on graphics cards. But much more innovative.
Intel&nV are not participating from very specific reasons. This new thing is strong push towards HSA.
Early birds will have to support two platforms and invest resources with low return rate.
Intel & nV will eat legacy clients while AMD will be pushing for future. (I think it will not be so close future.)
And they'll make leap once market is large enough/proven.
LiviuTM
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#5521702 Posted on: 02/21/2018 03:42 PM
This new interconnect standard is about addressing servers & High Performance Computing issues (same as CCIX, or OpenCAPI where Nvidia is also involved), not directed to consumer products.
Intel has its own standard, Omni-Path, and s not involved in any of these 3 interconnect standards consortia. For some details, see https://www.csm.ornl.gov/workshops/openshmem2017/presentations/Benton - OpenCAPI, Gen-Z, CCIX- Technology Overview, Trends, and Alignments.pdf
This new interconnect standard is about addressing servers & High Performance Computing issues (same as CCIX, or OpenCAPI where Nvidia is also involved), not directed to consumer products.
Intel has its own standard, Omni-Path, and s not involved in any of these 3 interconnect standards consortia. For some details, see https://www.csm.ornl.gov/workshops/openshmem2017/presentations/Benton - OpenCAPI, Gen-Z, CCIX- Technology Overview, Trends, and Alignments.pdf
-Tj-
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#5521704 Posted on: 02/21/2018 03:47 PM
I thought pcie4 and pcie5 was the successor?
I thought pcie4 and pcie5 was the successor?
Dragondale13
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#5521713 Posted on: 02/21/2018 04:14 PM
What!? those memories were even worse!
I'm kidding obviously.
Not so much, this is like move from AGP to PCIe
What!? those memories were even worse!
I'm kidding obviously.
vbetts
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#5521737 Posted on: 02/21/2018 05:27 PM
No Intel = No consumer products
Do we need more than what PCIe can deliver currently?
Looks like there are a few big scale computing companies in there though so might be something for the datacentre/supercomputer crowd maybe?
Maybe in data centers. Consumer grade stuff, no not really.
No Intel = No consumer products
Do we need more than what PCIe can deliver currently?
Looks like there are a few big scale computing companies in there though so might be something for the datacentre/supercomputer crowd maybe?
Maybe in data centers. Consumer grade stuff, no not really.
tunejunky
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#5521766 Posted on: 02/21/2018 07:11 PM
reminds me of when people were skeptical of hdmi connectors on monitors.
obviously no-one any of us knows has a direct application for this standard.
but i remember when i didn't have an application (that was worth a darn...at first) for the Apple II.
to use a cheesy line from "field of dreams"...."build it and they will come".
reminds me of when people were skeptical of hdmi connectors on monitors.
obviously no-one any of us knows has a direct application for this standard.
but i remember when i didn't have an application (that was worth a darn...at first) for the Apple II.
to use a cheesy line from "field of dreams"...."build it and they will come".
wavetrex
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#5521780 Posted on: 02/21/2018 07:34 PM
This might be the dawn of the truly modular computer.
Need more CPU power ? Stick in another CPU "unit"
Need more GPU and higher frame-rates for games ? Add more GPU units
Need more I/O for your amazing media server ? Stick in an I/O unit with extra SATA/M.2 etc.
Need application specific accelerators ? Plug those in.
One slot to rule them all !
(And it should be hot swappable... adding or removing units without even bothering to power down or reboot)
I can already picture some crazy high-end motherboard that has 8 slots of this thing, all identical, and could go from 1 APU - 1 I/O to a multi-core beast with 6 CPU's or to a massive gaming/processing machine with 4 GPU's, 2 CPU's, 1 I/O and 1 VR/Sensor Interface board and next day swapped to a 4 I/O video-station / 4 CPU for some massive 4K encoding power.
I can only dream
This might be the dawn of the truly modular computer.
Need more CPU power ? Stick in another CPU "unit"
Need more GPU and higher frame-rates for games ? Add more GPU units
Need more I/O for your amazing media server ? Stick in an I/O unit with extra SATA/M.2 etc.
Need application specific accelerators ? Plug those in.
One slot to rule them all !
(And it should be hot swappable... adding or removing units without even bothering to power down or reboot)
I can already picture some crazy high-end motherboard that has 8 slots of this thing, all identical, and could go from 1 APU - 1 I/O to a multi-core beast with 6 CPU's or to a massive gaming/processing machine with 4 GPU's, 2 CPU's, 1 I/O and 1 VR/Sensor Interface board and next day swapped to a 4 I/O video-station / 4 CPU for some massive 4K encoding power.
I can only dream
Aura89
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#5521809 Posted on: 02/21/2018 08:37 PM
No Intel = No consumer products
Intel doesn't matter when it comes to this.
If Intel never supports it in their chipsets, then 3rd party controllers will step in, increasing the price of their boards, to make sure it works. It might be slower then intended because it's not accepted by the chipset directly, but it'd still happen, and then Intel motherboards would be that much more expensive.
The biggest and really main issue would be Nvidia, since it's going to be the adoption race of cards that'll determine if this goes further. And since Nvidia is as of yet on board, that'll be quite a chunk of devices that will be fitted with PCI-Express instead.
I like anything that pushes technology it can only help improve desktop PC's in the long run. Would be nice if all PCIE connectors were all 16x we might not need it but if hardware suppliers
new they can access that maybe they will produce faster and better hardware....... or maybe not
Honestly, we don't need all PCI-Express connectors to be 16x (ultimately would be a waste of materials and cost), what would be better would be for all PCI-Express connectors, except for the 16x slots, to be open ended and allow any size of card to be put there, albeit at lower speeds if the card needs more. This is already a thing, just not a universal thing.
There's even the option to put in the 16x slot clip (the back piece that holds the card in place)
No Intel = No consumer products
Intel doesn't matter when it comes to this.
If Intel never supports it in their chipsets, then 3rd party controllers will step in, increasing the price of their boards, to make sure it works. It might be slower then intended because it's not accepted by the chipset directly, but it'd still happen, and then Intel motherboards would be that much more expensive.
The biggest and really main issue would be Nvidia, since it's going to be the adoption race of cards that'll determine if this goes further. And since Nvidia is as of yet on board, that'll be quite a chunk of devices that will be fitted with PCI-Express instead.
I like anything that pushes technology it can only help improve desktop PC's in the long run. Would be nice if all PCIE connectors were all 16x we might not need it but if hardware suppliers
new they can access that maybe they will produce faster and better hardware....... or maybe not
Honestly, we don't need all PCI-Express connectors to be 16x (ultimately would be a waste of materials and cost), what would be better would be for all PCI-Express connectors, except for the 16x slots, to be open ended and allow any size of card to be put there, albeit at lower speeds if the card needs more. This is already a thing, just not a universal thing.
There's even the option to put in the 16x slot clip (the back piece that holds the card in place)
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No Intel = No consumer products
Do we need more than what PCIe can deliver currently?
Looks like there are a few big scale computing companies in there though so might be something for the datacentre/supercomputer crowd maybe?