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Fox2232
Senior Member
Posts: 11808
Joined: 2012-07-20
Senior Member
Posts: 11808
Joined: 2012-07-20
#5891535 Posted on: 03/01/2021 12:01 AM
wow...
therefore with non periodic signals you can't? WTH dude? You still haven't read the Nyquist theorem.
than its equally true for any other signal, and NOT just sine.
Because what else would be "the highest frequency" of non-periodic signal? lf not that of highest harmonic in its Fourier series?
This is such a basic stuff that its pissing me off that you dont know it, but are still willing to go back and forth. Arguing against a MATHEMATICAL theorem. Who does that o_O
Are you really that pissed? Because there is difference between sine and triangular wave? And because when both have frequency equal 1/2 of sampling rate, their captured values are exactly same?
Have you by chance ever saw frequency spectrum of saw tooth or triangular wave? Let's say 8kHz symmetric triangular wave. Captured with something that has sampling rate of 96kHz or more. (To prevent cut off.)
Can you, yourself by chance post image?
wow...
therefore with non periodic signals you can't? WTH dude? You still haven't read the Nyquist theorem.
Did it occur to you that any signal (periodic or non-periodic, sine or otherwise), as long as its finite can be represented as a superposition of sines/coss??
THERFORE
IF THIS
IS TRUE
than its equally true for any other signal, and NOT just sine.
Because what else would be "the highest frequency" of non-periodic signal? lf not that of highest harmonic in its Fourier series?
This is such a basic stuff that its pissing me off that you dont know it, but are still willing to go back and forth. Arguing against a MATHEMATICAL theorem. Who does that o_O
Are you really that pissed? Because there is difference between sine and triangular wave? And because when both have frequency equal 1/2 of sampling rate, their captured values are exactly same?
Have you by chance ever saw frequency spectrum of saw tooth or triangular wave? Let's say 8kHz symmetric triangular wave. Captured with something that has sampling rate of 96kHz or more. (To prevent cut off.)
Can you, yourself by chance post image?
Noisiv
Senior Member
Posts: 8192
Joined: 2010-11-16
Senior Member
Posts: 8192
Joined: 2010-11-16
#5891544 Posted on: 03/01/2021 01:05 AM
Because there is difference between sine and triangular wave? And because when both have frequency equal 1/2 of sampling rate, their captured values are exactly same?
Have you by chance ever saw frequency spectrum of saw tooth or triangular wave? Let's say 8kHz symmetric triangular wave. Captured with something that has sampling rate of 96kHz or more. (To prevent cut off.)
Can you, yourself by chance post image?
"what if mouse farts" , "lets say Santa is a rapist", "imagine that a reindeer explodes"
read the Nyquest theorem
bye
https://forums.guru3d.com/threads/forza-horizon-4-demo-available.422968/page-2
Because there is difference between sine and triangular wave? And because when both have frequency equal 1/2 of sampling rate, their captured values are exactly same?
Have you by chance ever saw frequency spectrum of saw tooth or triangular wave? Let's say 8kHz symmetric triangular wave. Captured with something that has sampling rate of 96kHz or more. (To prevent cut off.)
Can you, yourself by chance post image?
"what if mouse farts" , "lets say Santa is a rapist", "imagine that a reindeer explodes"
read the Nyquest theorem
bye
https://forums.guru3d.com/threads/forza-horizon-4-demo-available.422968/page-2
Fox2232
Senior Member
Posts: 11808
Joined: 2012-07-20
Senior Member
Posts: 11808
Joined: 2012-07-20
#5891555 Posted on: 03/01/2021 02:21 AM
"what if mouse farts" , "lets say Santa is a rapist", "imagine that a reindeer explodes"
read the Nyquest theorem
bye
https://forums.guru3d.com/threads/forza-horizon-4-demo-available.422968/page-2
I get you and I feel for you. That thing you do not want to put here is:
8kHz triangle wave has odd harmonics which are at following frequencies:
24kHz, 40kHz, 56kHz, 72kHz, 88kHz, ...
When you look at 8kHz triangle wave through Nyquist Theorem, you'll know that having sample rate of:
44kHz will capture properly only 1st Harmonics at 8kHz, rest will be trashed depending on AD pre-processing.
96kHz will capture properly 1st Harmonics at 8kHz, and 24kHz + 40kHz harmonics.
192kHz will capture properly 1st Harmonics at 8kHz, and 24kHz + 40kHz + 56kHz + 72kHz + 88kHz harmonics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle-wave
In link above, there is lovely example of effect of harmonics on resulting sound. (Right side, named: Additive Triangle wave sound sample. )
Sound itself starts at 220Hz, its added harmonics are 660Hz, 1100Hz, 1540Hz, 1980Hz, 2420Hz, 2860Hz, ... and so on.
What can be heard at 1st when only 220Hz sound plays is pure sine wave. Adding additional harmonics (which are sine waves too) slowly in steps turns it closer and closer to true triangle wave.
Everyone can hear for themselves that without harmonics, there is no triangular wave.
Sampling and replaying 8kHz triangular wave at 44kHz, 96kHz, 192kHz will result in very different outputs.
And there is even image of harmonics of triangle wave on same wiki.
- - - -
As of your examples in quotation marks. I'll give you alternative: "What if you actually look at what I told you to look at years ago."
"what if mouse farts" , "lets say Santa is a rapist", "imagine that a reindeer explodes"
read the Nyquest theorem
bye
https://forums.guru3d.com/threads/forza-horizon-4-demo-available.422968/page-2
I get you and I feel for you. That thing you do not want to put here is:
8kHz triangle wave has odd harmonics which are at following frequencies:
24kHz, 40kHz, 56kHz, 72kHz, 88kHz, ...
When you look at 8kHz triangle wave through Nyquist Theorem, you'll know that having sample rate of:
44kHz will capture properly only 1st Harmonics at 8kHz, rest will be trashed depending on AD pre-processing.
96kHz will capture properly 1st Harmonics at 8kHz, and 24kHz + 40kHz harmonics.
192kHz will capture properly 1st Harmonics at 8kHz, and 24kHz + 40kHz + 56kHz + 72kHz + 88kHz harmonics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle-wave
In link above, there is lovely example of effect of harmonics on resulting sound. (Right side, named: Additive Triangle wave sound sample. )
Sound itself starts at 220Hz, its added harmonics are 660Hz, 1100Hz, 1540Hz, 1980Hz, 2420Hz, 2860Hz, ... and so on.
What can be heard at 1st when only 220Hz sound plays is pure sine wave. Adding additional harmonics (which are sine waves too) slowly in steps turns it closer and closer to true triangle wave.
Everyone can hear for themselves that without harmonics, there is no triangular wave.
Sampling and replaying 8kHz triangular wave at 44kHz, 96kHz, 192kHz will result in very different outputs.
And there is even image of harmonics of triangle wave on same wiki.
- - - -
As of your examples in quotation marks. I'll give you alternative: "What if you actually look at what I told you to look at years ago."
PrMinisterGR
Senior Member
Posts: 8093
Joined: 2014-09-27
Senior Member
Posts: 8093
Joined: 2014-09-27
#5891557 Posted on: 03/01/2021 02:40 AM
No kind of post-processing is native. It is just post processing.
One could as well render native 4K, run over it 10 pixel wide Gaussian filter and state: "Native 4K is worse than TAA 1080p."
Sure, 4K with use of 10 pixel wide Gaussian filter would look worse than 1080p with any TAA. Yet, statement would be wrong as it does not compare native resolution rendering, but post-processing methods.
And as can be seen, I stated that DLSS 2.0 is often better than TAA run at native resolution. (But not better than native resolution rendering itself. There is simply too big loss of information for both TAA and DLSS.)
And as I wrote many times before. nVidia should have enabled use of DLSS for processing of native resolution images. Its frametime impact is not high and would justify its results.
There is no "native" and no post processing distinction, not the way you imagine it.
A single game (at any given native resolution), is a composition of effects, filters and calculations done at usually a fraction of the"native" resolution.
I know you will ignore this and say whatever, but if anyone else is interested in how things actually are, this is s great read:
https://simoncoenen.com/blog/programming/graphics/DoomEternalStudy.html
No kind of post-processing is native. It is just post processing.
One could as well render native 4K, run over it 10 pixel wide Gaussian filter and state: "Native 4K is worse than TAA 1080p."
Sure, 4K with use of 10 pixel wide Gaussian filter would look worse than 1080p with any TAA. Yet, statement would be wrong as it does not compare native resolution rendering, but post-processing methods.
And as can be seen, I stated that DLSS 2.0 is often better than TAA run at native resolution. (But not better than native resolution rendering itself. There is simply too big loss of information for both TAA and DLSS.)
And as I wrote many times before. nVidia should have enabled use of DLSS for processing of native resolution images. Its frametime impact is not high and would justify its results.
There is no "native" and no post processing distinction, not the way you imagine it.
A single game (at any given native resolution), is a composition of effects, filters and calculations done at usually a fraction of the"native" resolution.
I know you will ignore this and say whatever, but if anyone else is interested in how things actually are, this is s great read:
https://simoncoenen.com/blog/programming/graphics/DoomEternalStudy.html
Click here to post a comment for this news story on the message forum.
Senior Member
Posts: 8192
Joined: 2010-11-16
With simple sine signals, you can get away with frequencies up to 1/2 of sampling rate.
wow...
therefore with non periodic signals you can't? WTH dude? You still haven't read the Nyquist theorem.
With simple sine signals, you can get away with frequencies up to 1/2 of sampling rate.
than its equally true for any other signal, and NOT just sine.
Because what else would be "the highest frequency" of non-periodic signal? lf not that of highest harmonic in its Fourier series?
This is such a basic stuff that its pissing me off that you dont know it, but are still willing to go back and forth. Arguing against a MATHEMATICAL theorem. Who does that o_O