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Guru3D Rig of the Month - December 2019
New NAND Storage Development: SLC, MLC, TLC, QLC NAND ... going for PLC
NAND flash memory products have seen many stages of development and are evolving continuously. SLC is very expensive, MLC as well, TLC currently is the sweet spot and yes, this year we've already reviewed the QLC based NAND products.
That combined with more layers per package increase storage volumes and lower prices. Each time you step it down a notch (adding more bits to write in one cell), you'll lose a number of write cycles but also it will have an effect on performance. Toshiba is trying the next step, after QLC they are developing and researching PLC. PLC and is short for Penta level cell and the technology would store five bits per cell.
The word is out at Toshiba and WD (Sandisk) they already have working prototypes. it remains to be seen if this tech will actually make it to viable production lines, as it is increasingly more complex. PLC would require 32 different types of voltage.
Algorithm can detect recycled and new NAND flash chips - 05/15/2018 06:40 AM
Counterfeit flash memory is becoming a growing problem; researchers in Alabama found an algorithm to predict how old (and used) a NAND Cell is. With a straightforward electronic examination, they c...
New NAND based Intel SSD 760p (TLC) and 660p (QLC) Specs Leak Online - 01/15/2018 04:54 PM
SLC, MLC, TLC and comes QLC. Cheap NAND flash for the masses, and guess what happened? Specs from Intel's next generation consumer NVMe products are spotted online. ...
SK Hynix invests bigtime in new NAND memory factory - 12/23/2016 09:25 AM
Things are going well for memory manufacturer Hynix, they are investing massively in a new plant. In fact they will invest $2.6 billion to boost its NAND production to anticipate on increasing demand...
Loophole35
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#5704208 Posted on: 08/26/2019 11:58 AM
If it means I can get a 4TB games SSD for ~$150 I’m all for it.
If it means I can get a 4TB games SSD for ~$150 I’m all for it.
Silva
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#5704229 Posted on: 08/26/2019 01:25 PM
Development of new technologies is always welcomed.
That said, I hate the reliability of QLC and much rather stick to TLC. I can't imagine the endurance PLC will have...
I'm sure that with help from development of PLC, QLC will get better reliability. But there's a point that I'd rather my drive live for longer than having more density.
My current Crucial MX100 256GB drive has 5 years and still going strong. I'm upgrading to NVMe but this drive will live on my old mom's computer to keep working.
Development of new technologies is always welcomed.
That said, I hate the reliability of QLC and much rather stick to TLC. I can't imagine the endurance PLC will have...
I'm sure that with help from development of PLC, QLC will get better reliability. But there's a point that I'd rather my drive live for longer than having more density.
My current Crucial MX100 256GB drive has 5 years and still going strong. I'm upgrading to NVMe but this drive will live on my old mom's computer to keep working.
slyphnier
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#5704230 Posted on: 08/26/2019 01:28 PM
if we look at this, basically nand maker somewhat "fooling-around"
at beginning SLC - high-durability / expensive, so to push price lower, they make QLC/PLC - low-durability / much cheaper
luckily the nand capacity become so big, basically it cover-up the cons that qlc/plc have which is low write amplification, and as most user wont full-up their storage having free-space also help
SLC = 100K P/E cycles
MLC = 10K P/E cycles
TLC = 3K P/E cycles which i still think sweet-spot
QLC = 1K P/E cycles
PLC = 300 P/E cycles?
even SSD-maker using SLC cache system, far-better controller etc.
if we keep going on this trend, somewhat it make me think, probably the future SSD durability wont be much different than traditional HDD, especially in write-intensive environment
if we look at this, basically nand maker somewhat "fooling-around"
at beginning SLC - high-durability / expensive, so to push price lower, they make QLC/PLC - low-durability / much cheaper
luckily the nand capacity become so big, basically it cover-up the cons that qlc/plc have which is low write amplification, and as most user wont full-up their storage having free-space also help
SLC = 100K P/E cycles
MLC = 10K P/E cycles
TLC = 3K P/E cycles which i still think sweet-spot
QLC = 1K P/E cycles
PLC = 300 P/E cycles?
even SSD-maker using SLC cache system, far-better controller etc.
if we keep going on this trend, somewhat it make me think, probably the future SSD durability wont be much different than traditional HDD, especially in write-intensive environment
fry178
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#5704267 Posted on: 08/26/2019 02:47 PM
Usually you have most drives starting to have issues with non-nand related stuff (controller etc), and around 1 out of 4 drive (of the same type)
will have nand related problems after a few years, so it might work for most consumers (especially at lower price),
but when i saw that the sustained TLC numbers on a nvme get beaten by an older MLC drive running sata,
yeah, i wont get anything "after" TLC.
even switched back to MLC for one of my backup drives i replaced, just to make sure.
Usually you have most drives starting to have issues with non-nand related stuff (controller etc), and around 1 out of 4 drive (of the same type)
will have nand related problems after a few years, so it might work for most consumers (especially at lower price),
but when i saw that the sustained TLC numbers on a nvme get beaten by an older MLC drive running sata,
yeah, i wont get anything "after" TLC.
even switched back to MLC for one of my backup drives i replaced, just to make sure.
schmidtbag
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#5704278 Posted on: 08/26/2019 03:02 PM
What I don't really get is why stop there? Why not just jump to OLC (octa level cell)? That way you get a nice even 1 byte per cell. I'm not sure if that affects performance at all but I imagine it'd be easier than an awkward number like 5.
Same. Most of the detriments to such SSDs are totally irrelevant to things like game and media storage.
At some point, I'm going to need to upgrade my RAID1 array in my home server, which uses a pair of laptop HDDs. Ditching them for a low-cost PLC SSD is really starting to sound enticing. I'm basically just waiting for one of the drives to die, or, until I run out of space, so I have an excuse to ditch them.
What I don't really get is why stop there? Why not just jump to OLC (octa level cell)? That way you get a nice even 1 byte per cell. I'm not sure if that affects performance at all but I imagine it'd be easier than an awkward number like 5.
If it means I can get a 4TB games SSD for ~$150 I’m all for it.
Same. Most of the detriments to such SSDs are totally irrelevant to things like game and media storage.
At some point, I'm going to need to upgrade my RAID1 array in my home server, which uses a pair of laptop HDDs. Ditching them for a low-cost PLC SSD is really starting to sound enticing. I'm basically just waiting for one of the drives to die, or, until I run out of space, so I have an excuse to ditch them.
spectatorx
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#5704476 Posted on: 08/26/2019 11:49 PM
I just finished watching this video and i was shocked when i've seen copying files onto QLC drive is comparable to/worse than copying similar files of similar total size between HDDs. On HDD similar process goes at speeds between 100-150MB/s (depending on particular models or units) and speeds are stable all the time, unlike as with this QLC drive.
I just finished watching this video and i was shocked when i've seen copying files onto QLC drive is comparable to/worse than copying similar files of similar total size between HDDs. On HDD similar process goes at speeds between 100-150MB/s (depending on particular models or units) and speeds are stable all the time, unlike as with this QLC drive.
Yakk
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#5704516 Posted on: 08/27/2019 02:20 AM
Getting closer & closer to yearly disposable drives with the big jumps with QLC & now PLC.
Getting closer & closer to yearly disposable drives with the big jumps with QLC & now PLC.
sverek
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#5704524 Posted on: 08/27/2019 04:57 AM
Do you Yakk your SSD a lot?
Getting closer & closer to yearly disposable drives with the big jumps with QLC & now PLC.
Do you Yakk your SSD a lot?
Richard Nutman
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#5704561 Posted on: 08/27/2019 10:17 AM
QLC only slows down if you're copying really big files, and the SLC cache gets used up. Reading is still a lot faster than mechanicals.
I switched to a quiet case not long back and the mechanical HD was the last noisiest bit, so swapped that up for a QLC SSD once it started making strange noises.
You still get better slower degradation rather than complete fail with mechanical drives, and the quietness of them is appealing to me at least.
I just finished watching this video and i was shocked when i've seen copying files onto QLC drive is comparable to/worse than copying similar files of similar total size between HDDs. On HDD similar process goes at speeds between 100-150MB/s (depending on particular models or units) and speeds are stable all the time, unlike as with this QLC drive.
QLC only slows down if you're copying really big files, and the SLC cache gets used up. Reading is still a lot faster than mechanicals.
I switched to a quiet case not long back and the mechanical HD was the last noisiest bit, so swapped that up for a QLC SSD once it started making strange noises.
You still get better slower degradation rather than complete fail with mechanical drives, and the quietness of them is appealing to me at least.
Loophole35
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#5704579 Posted on: 08/27/2019 11:38 AM
I didn’t click the like but I’m assuming it’s the Linus video. Keep in mind he used an unrealistic scenario to slow the drive down. Most people won’t be simultaneously copying 10GB files from one drive to another on a daily basis. As I and others have stated (even Linus in the video) this a a perfect game drive.
I just finished watching this video and i was shocked when i've seen copying files onto QLC drive is comparable to/worse than copying similar files of similar total size between HDDs. On HDD similar process goes at speeds between 100-150MB/s (depending on particular models or units) and speeds are stable all the time, unlike as with this QLC drive.
I didn’t click the like but I’m assuming it’s the Linus video. Keep in mind he used an unrealistic scenario to slow the drive down. Most people won’t be simultaneously copying 10GB files from one drive to another on a daily basis. As I and others have stated (even Linus in the video) this a a perfect game drive.
Keitosha
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#5704601 Posted on: 08/27/2019 12:51 PM
I didn’t click the like but I’m assuming it’s the Linus video. Keep in mind he used an unrealistic scenario to slow the drive down. Most people won’t be simultaneously copying 10GB files from one drive to another on a daily basis. As I and others have stated (even Linus in the video) this a a perfect game drive.
It's from Christopher Barnatt (ExplainingComputers). I really like his channel. Linus is fine, but can be a drama queen sometimes.
fry178
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#5704652 Posted on: 08/27/2019 02:17 PM
@
so far i had never any problems with degradation, but the controller dying, and no data recovery possible.
the only HDDs i couldn't recover, were the grinding/clicking units, were customers tried to boot/mess with it, even that it made a strange sound..
@
Richard Nutman
so far i had never any problems with degradation, but the controller dying, and no data recovery possible.
the only HDDs i couldn't recover, were the grinding/clicking units, were customers tried to boot/mess with it, even that it made a strange sound..
Richard Nutman
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#5704658 Posted on: 08/27/2019 02:27 PM
That's unlucky with the controller dying. What brand(s) was that ?
That's unlucky with the controller dying. What brand(s) was that ?
fry178
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#5704661 Posted on: 08/27/2019 02:34 PM
one was a myssd msata (only port that was left on a matx board) and the other a ocz vertex4.
both were mainly OS drives (but still some user data i wanted), so not too bad,
but i wont care to reinstall all my games (siege alone is around 120gb already), just because i wanted a big cheap drive.
for me perf does matter, and after tlc, the sustained speeds are below what i get from a 7200rpm 2.5 hdd, even my 960 evo will have lower writes than a mlc sata drive i use as external backup,
so that will be the type i wont go past..
one was a myssd msata (only port that was left on a matx board) and the other a ocz vertex4.
both were mainly OS drives (but still some user data i wanted), so not too bad,
but i wont care to reinstall all my games (siege alone is around 120gb already), just because i wanted a big cheap drive.
for me perf does matter, and after tlc, the sustained speeds are below what i get from a 7200rpm 2.5 hdd, even my 960 evo will have lower writes than a mlc sata drive i use as external backup,
so that will be the type i wont go past..
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Wonder how many layers they can get this down to before reliability and the hardware's overall lifetime is reduced too badly, Penta(gram) layer SSD now and next up I suppose is hexa, whatever seven is called and then octa if this keeps going on.
Then again really long huge numbers shrinking doesn't really say much either, hardware dies whenever the user is most inconvenienced by it as per some law from how the universe just works and that's that. :p
Suppose storage capacity and affordability can continue to go up too, just have to monitor overall status and keep the priority files backed up and that should be good enough.
EDIT: As for regular usage I'm pretty sure 3 - 5 years is still more than feasible same as the general lifetime for a HDD before they start showing signs and even then it can last quite a while plus no mechanical parts in a SSD and it can theoretically keep going even more removing that little wear and tear and other issues with spinning headers and platters even if the memory cells have a finite lifetime but tech keeps it optimum so it gets a lot of lifetime regardless of some arbitrary number of hours.