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MSI drops functions from BIOS of AMD's 300 and 400 series motherboards to support Ryzen 3000
Now I say MSI here, but this will not be specific towards MSI as all manufacturers have to deal with it. Remember a while ago when we mentioned that Ryzen 3000 procs might not be supported on Series 300 and 400 motherboards due to a too small BIOS storage size?
Well, here's the thing, quickly after that discussion surfaced, AMD and the motherboard manufacturers swiftly declared Ryzen 3000 support.
Here's the thing (2), the old BIOS EPROM sizes are 16MB. You can only store that much data on it. Over the years more and more procs and memory has been added and at one point, it's stuffed. You have to say that this problem is more apparent for AMD as they have a shitload of processors for socket AM4, and that is now working against them. The X570 motherboards all have a 32MB BIOS EEPROM to store data, so that's save as it's doubled up right?
MSI now has explained on their website how they will bring Ryzen 3000 support towards say certain Series 300 chipsets, simply put .. you can't have it all. So they have removed older (aging) processors from the new firmware and added Ryzen series 3000 processors. Next, to that, a number of features have been scrapped. A-series and Athlon processors from the 28nm Bristol Ridge generation are no longer supported in the firmware. In addition, the MSI proprietary possibility for SATA raid has been removed but might be back after the BIOS leaves Beta stages. Last but not least you'll notice a very slim GUI UEFI interface. This applies specifically to MSI's boards however other manufacturers also use a 16 MB bios chip, so they will have to make choices as well. All is not a biggy for most people of course.
Aura89
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#5689293 Posted on: 07/09/2019 06:23 PM
I would happily lose my fancy GUI with mouse support for the old fashion, simple yet useable and functional, 4 color bios screens.
I really feel like if they have to remove stuff from the bios, that's the first thing that should go. Anything else should be after as at that point you are lowering the functionality of the board to increase the functionality of the board....
All of these icons and graphics and etc. don't need to be there.
I would happily lose my fancy GUI with mouse support for the old fashion, simple yet useable and functional, 4 color bios screens.
I really feel like if they have to remove stuff from the bios, that's the first thing that should go. Anything else should be after as at that point you are lowering the functionality of the board to increase the functionality of the board....
All of these icons and graphics and etc. don't need to be there.
Kaarme
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#5689307 Posted on: 07/09/2019 06:47 PM
I wonder how many cents the mobo manufacturers saved by using 16MB instead of 32MB. But every small thing contributes to the profits.
I wonder how many cents the mobo manufacturers saved by using 16MB instead of 32MB. But every small thing contributes to the profits.
schmidtbag
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#5689312 Posted on: 07/09/2019 07:02 PM
No more 9500E support!? That's it, I'm never buying MSI again. Totally unacceptable. I don't even care that I only need to pick one BIOS version to suit the CPU I have, the principle of the matter is they dropped features and I won't stand for this!
*hyperventilates over getting excessively triggered*
On a serious note:
I would happily lose my fancy GUI with mouse support for the old fashion, simple yet useable and functional, 4 color bios screens.
I really feel like if they have to remove stuff from the bios, that's the first thing that should go. Anything else should be after as at that point you are lowering the functionality of the board to increase the functionality of the board....
All of these icons and graphics and etc. don't need to be there.
I was thinking the same thing, though, maybe they don't even have to go that far. I'm sure they waste a hell of a lot more space with a few of those graphics (which are probably bitmaps) than the new microcode. They could still have a GUI with all the benefits (like live sensor data) but they could probably cut back on some of the cheesy graphics, and maybe go down to 16-bit color. That way, everyone wins: you get a cleaner interface that isn't limited to the appeal of teenage boys, and, you get to include all AM4 microcode. Granted, the screenshots of that interface don't look as bad as others I've seen.
Another thing worth pointing out is I've commonly found Intel-specific features in a few more budget-oriented boards. Sometimes they were grayed-out since they obviously didn't do anything, but I wonder if perhaps the code for them is still there. I doubt there's enough of this kind of unusable code they could clean up to make room for Zen2, but, it sure wouldn't hurt.
I wonder how many cents the mobo manufacturers saved by using 16MB instead of 32MB. But every small thing contributes to the profits.
These kinds of EEPROM tend to be much more expensive per Kb than just about any other form of modern storage. It wouldn't surprise me if they actually saved over a dollar by going for 16Mb. Of course, it all depends on how it's all interfaced, because sometimes one of those chips can range from $0.50 to $4.50.
wHaT!!!1?!
No more 9500E support!? That's it, I'm never buying MSI again. Totally unacceptable. I don't even care that I only need to pick one BIOS version to suit the CPU I have, the principle of the matter is they dropped features and I won't stand for this!
*hyperventilates over getting excessively triggered*
On a serious note:
I would happily lose my fancy GUI with mouse support for the old fashion, simple yet useable and functional, 4 color bios screens.
I really feel like if they have to remove stuff from the bios, that's the first thing that should go. Anything else should be after as at that point you are lowering the functionality of the board to increase the functionality of the board....
All of these icons and graphics and etc. don't need to be there.
I was thinking the same thing, though, maybe they don't even have to go that far. I'm sure they waste a hell of a lot more space with a few of those graphics (which are probably bitmaps) than the new microcode. They could still have a GUI with all the benefits (like live sensor data) but they could probably cut back on some of the cheesy graphics, and maybe go down to 16-bit color. That way, everyone wins: you get a cleaner interface that isn't limited to the appeal of teenage boys, and, you get to include all AM4 microcode. Granted, the screenshots of that interface don't look as bad as others I've seen.
Another thing worth pointing out is I've commonly found Intel-specific features in a few more budget-oriented boards. Sometimes they were grayed-out since they obviously didn't do anything, but I wonder if perhaps the code for them is still there. I doubt there's enough of this kind of unusable code they could clean up to make room for Zen2, but, it sure wouldn't hurt.
I wonder how many cents the mobo manufacturers saved by using 16MB instead of 32MB. But every small thing contributes to the profits.
These kinds of EEPROM tend to be much more expensive per Kb than just about any other form of modern storage. It wouldn't surprise me if they actually saved over a dollar by going for 16Mb. Of course, it all depends on how it's all interfaced, because sometimes one of those chips can range from $0.50 to $4.50.
waltc3
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#5689314 Posted on: 07/09/2019 07:04 PM
The loss of SATA RAID function is temporary, only. Will be restored when bios leaves beta, apparently.
https://www.msi.com/blog/the-latest-bios-for-amd-300-400-series-motherboard
The only thing I saw actually missing was the graphical bling, which isn't necessary, imo. This bios UI reminds me of what UEFI bioses looked like when they were first introduced.
The loss of SATA RAID function is temporary, only. Will be restored when bios leaves beta, apparently.
https://www.msi.com/blog/the-latest-bios-for-amd-300-400-series-motherboard
The only thing I saw actually missing was the graphical bling, which isn't necessary, imo. This bios UI reminds me of what UEFI bioses looked like when they were first introduced.
TheDeeGee
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#5689330 Posted on: 07/09/2019 07:39 PM
I would happily lose my fancy GUI with mouse support for the old fashion, simple yet useable and functional, 4 color bios screens.
I really feel like if they have to remove stuff from the bios, that's the first thing that should go. Anything else should be after as at that point you are lowering the functionality of the board to increase the functionality of the board....
All of these icons and graphics and etc. don't need to be there.
Indeed, on my current motherboard i also use the Classic layout, i find it easier to navigate in.
I would happily lose my fancy GUI with mouse support for the old fashion, simple yet useable and functional, 4 color bios screens.
I really feel like if they have to remove stuff from the bios, that's the first thing that should go. Anything else should be after as at that point you are lowering the functionality of the board to increase the functionality of the board....
All of these icons and graphics and etc. don't need to be there.
Indeed, on my current motherboard i also use the Classic layout, i find it easier to navigate in.
Silva
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#5689342 Posted on: 07/09/2019 08:01 PM
I think it's totally fine to eliminate the code for older CPUs so you could use the new ones.
As long as the motherboard supports the flash bios feature, or you'd be f*ed if you actually had the processor they dropped and were trying to update the bios, I don't know how that would work.
I think it's totally fine to eliminate the code for older CPUs so you could use the new ones.
As long as the motherboard supports the flash bios feature, or you'd be f*ed if you actually had the processor they dropped and were trying to update the bios, I don't know how that would work.
schmidtbag
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#5689351 Posted on: 07/09/2019 08:18 PM
I think it's totally fine to eliminate the code for older CPUs so you could use the new ones.
As long as the motherboard supports the flash bios feature, or you'd be f*ed if you actually had the processor they dropped and were trying to update the bios, I don't know how that would work.
Well, I doubt MSI is making any more 300 series boards (not sure about 400) so any existing boards as of today will be assumed Zen2 incompatible out-of-the-box. If you already possess one of these boards, are using one of the now-dropped CPUs, and want to upgrade to Zen2, I would assume the BIOS update will complete, but the PC will be rendered unbootable until you put in the new Zen2 CPU. I don't really see why the very few Bristol Ridge users out there would want to update to this latest version if they didn't intend to upgrade, since I'm sure they won't see any benefits at all.
I think it's totally fine to eliminate the code for older CPUs so you could use the new ones.
As long as the motherboard supports the flash bios feature, or you'd be f*ed if you actually had the processor they dropped and were trying to update the bios, I don't know how that would work.
Well, I doubt MSI is making any more 300 series boards (not sure about 400) so any existing boards as of today will be assumed Zen2 incompatible out-of-the-box. If you already possess one of these boards, are using one of the now-dropped CPUs, and want to upgrade to Zen2, I would assume the BIOS update will complete, but the PC will be rendered unbootable until you put in the new Zen2 CPU. I don't really see why the very few Bristol Ridge users out there would want to update to this latest version if they didn't intend to upgrade, since I'm sure they won't see any benefits at all.
JonasBeckman
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#5689383 Posted on: 07/09/2019 09:45 PM
So if MSI's are the current popular boards, Ryzen 3000 is looking like a nice new upgrade even for relatively new CPU model owners but you need the 570 or variants because backwards compatibility can't be guaranteed (" ") to be compatible and the boards also cost more (Wasn't that also MSI saying they wouldn't be very cheap?) then this would drive users towards upgrading also the motherboard maybe picking a MSI model.
With the possibility of other vendors pushing for a backwards compatibility bios and marketing unless they're all starting to drop support in this fashion though I don't think that's going to happen if those boards cost more and a 450 could be more than enough if power delivery holds up. (PCI-E 4.0 and all but it's not the be all end all update just yet.)
We'll see how it goes, I'd be doubling down on promoting existing stock as backwards compatible and selling those out clearing inventory and such if the competition was pushing for a enthusiast level priced alternative as the only choice but then again I don't know anything about business and then there's also investors and other pressure and always profits, all the profits, more profits and constant profits driving ... further profits. Ha ha.
Something like that, covering both entry, mid and high end in addition to enthusiast hardware and more importantly the price range seems better at least.
(And at 400 dollars or higher for a motherboard this isn't exactly entry level pricing or even mid-range possibly pushing above high-end board pricing but I don't know the level of these since my own upgrade in 2011 - 2012 somewhere and the market has changed since then.)
So if MSI's are the current popular boards, Ryzen 3000 is looking like a nice new upgrade even for relatively new CPU model owners but you need the 570 or variants because backwards compatibility can't be guaranteed (" ") to be compatible and the boards also cost more (Wasn't that also MSI saying they wouldn't be very cheap?) then this would drive users towards upgrading also the motherboard maybe picking a MSI model.
With the possibility of other vendors pushing for a backwards compatibility bios and marketing unless they're all starting to drop support in this fashion though I don't think that's going to happen if those boards cost more and a 450 could be more than enough if power delivery holds up. (PCI-E 4.0 and all but it's not the be all end all update just yet.)
We'll see how it goes, I'd be doubling down on promoting existing stock as backwards compatible and selling those out clearing inventory and such if the competition was pushing for a enthusiast level priced alternative as the only choice but then again I don't know anything about business and then there's also investors and other pressure and always profits, all the profits, more profits and constant profits driving ... further profits. Ha ha.
Something like that, covering both entry, mid and high end in addition to enthusiast hardware and more importantly the price range seems better at least.
(And at 400 dollars or higher for a motherboard this isn't exactly entry level pricing or even mid-range possibly pushing above high-end board pricing but I don't know the level of these since my own upgrade in 2011 - 2012 somewhere and the market has changed since then.)
holler
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#5689384 Posted on: 07/09/2019 09:45 PM
I think it's totally fine to eliminate the code for older CPUs so you could use the new ones.
As long as the motherboard supports the flash bios feature, or you'd be f*ed if you actually had the processor they dropped and were trying to update the bios, I don't know how that would work.
Well, it would still flash, it just wouldn't come back from a reboot (until you pop a supported proc in)
my guess MSI would put safeguards (ARE YOU SURE Y/N) in the flashing routine exe to avoid that situation however.
I think it's totally fine to eliminate the code for older CPUs so you could use the new ones.
As long as the motherboard supports the flash bios feature, or you'd be f*ed if you actually had the processor they dropped and were trying to update the bios, I don't know how that would work.
Well, it would still flash, it just wouldn't come back from a reboot (until you pop a supported proc in)
my guess MSI would put safeguards (ARE YOU SURE Y/N) in the flashing routine exe to avoid that situation however.
kakiharaFRS
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#5689388 Posted on: 07/09/2019 09:51 PM
as long as they warn the user before downloading of the bios and again before applying it, no problem for me
and yeah honestly those fancy animated "casual-easy" screen should be the 1st thing to go, people who use them shouldn't be in the bios anyway
btws ASROCK insists on their webpage and documentation that users with no problems should not update their bios
as long as they warn the user before downloading of the bios and again before applying it, no problem for me
and yeah honestly those fancy animated "casual-easy" screen should be the 1st thing to go, people who use them shouldn't be in the bios anyway
btws ASROCK insists on their webpage and documentation that users with no problems should not update their bios
rl66
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#5689390 Posted on: 07/09/2019 09:59 PM
I remember that few ago bios where on removable rom... very convenient to build bios mod on larger rom if it can be done.
Maybe it would have been done here (but i know it is better to make user spend their money in a new motherboard... Capitalism, you know...)
I remember that few ago bios where on removable rom... very convenient to build bios mod on larger rom if it can be done.
Maybe it would have been done here (but i know it is better to make user spend their money in a new motherboard... Capitalism, you know...)
Andrew LB
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#5689479 Posted on: 07/10/2019 03:33 AM
I remember that few ago bios where on removable rom... very convenient to build bios mod on larger rom if it can be done.
Maybe it would have been done here (but i know it is better to make user spend their money in a new motherboard... Capitalism, you know...)
Would you rather have communism? Profit motive is what drives innovation, or do they not teach basic economics anymore? When i was finishing at my university 20 years ago, most professors seemed to be far more interested in teaching social justice and political activism than anything that will make you money in life. Judging by all the Sanders supporters among young people, clearly its gotten worse. Amazing that people would be against the economic system which has done more to increase the standard of living among billions of people than any other system in history.
And fyi, please don't confuse corporatism with capitalism. quite often people mistake the former for the latter. corporatism is a cancer.
I remember that few ago bios where on removable rom... very convenient to build bios mod on larger rom if it can be done.
Maybe it would have been done here (but i know it is better to make user spend their money in a new motherboard... Capitalism, you know...)
Would you rather have communism? Profit motive is what drives innovation, or do they not teach basic economics anymore? When i was finishing at my university 20 years ago, most professors seemed to be far more interested in teaching social justice and political activism than anything that will make you money in life. Judging by all the Sanders supporters among young people, clearly its gotten worse. Amazing that people would be against the economic system which has done more to increase the standard of living among billions of people than any other system in history.
And fyi, please don't confuse corporatism with capitalism. quite often people mistake the former for the latter. corporatism is a cancer.
schmidtbag
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#5689480 Posted on: 07/10/2019 03:35 AM
Please don't confuse tech forums as a place for political rantings.
And fyi, please don't confuse corporatism with capitalism. quite often people mistake the former for the latter. corporatism is a cancer.
Please don't confuse tech forums as a place for political rantings.
Alessio1989
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#5689564 Posted on: 07/10/2019 11:21 AM
The loss of SATA RAID function is temporary, only. Will be restored when bios leaves beta, apparently.
https://www.msi.com/blog/the-latest-bios-for-amd-300-400-series-motherboard
The only thing I saw actually missing was the graphical bling, which isn't necessary, imo. This bios UI reminds me of what UEFI bioses looked like when they were first introduced.
So the S-ATA RAID firmware is still present, but without gimmick graphics? Not so bad after all, you do not usually play with the RAID firmware so much like any other BIOS settings, you only need to select the drives, the mode and the strip size, command/text mode is enough, you set-up the RAID only one time for a system...
The loss of SATA RAID function is temporary, only. Will be restored when bios leaves beta, apparently.
https://www.msi.com/blog/the-latest-bios-for-amd-300-400-series-motherboard
The only thing I saw actually missing was the graphical bling, which isn't necessary, imo. This bios UI reminds me of what UEFI bioses looked like when they were first introduced.
So the S-ATA RAID firmware is still present, but without gimmick graphics? Not so bad after all, you do not usually play with the RAID firmware so much like any other BIOS settings, you only need to select the drives, the mode and the strip size, command/text mode is enough, you set-up the RAID only one time for a system...
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Didn't notice anything like that in the C6H with the last BIOS (but still built with ComboPI 1.0.0.2). Even CBS is fully unlocked.