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Belgian Minister of Justice Koen Geens wants to ban the sale of games with loot boxes.
Belgian Minister of Justice Koen Geens, hopes to ban the sale of games with 'additional' purchases, if it is not clear what exactly these purchases involve.
Gamers can purchase so-called 'loot boxes' with real money in some games. These are random upgrades in these virtual boxes. Players do not know what they get in advance, that is deemed and ruled gambling. "Gambling and gaming mixing, especially at a young age, is dangerous for the mental health of the child," says Geens. He hopes to restrict the sale of these extras in games. "But that takes time, we have to go to Europe," he adds. "We are definitely going to try to ban it."
The Dutch and Belgian gambling authorities have previously started investigations into games with loot boxes, to determine whether they are gambling games. The Belgian authority was quite sure about this recently: they call "the mixing of money and addiction" a form of gambling, even if that happens in games.
Moving a few km upwards to the Netherlands - The Dutch authority emphasizes that game rewards must have economic value before it is labeled as gambling. If the games in the Netherlands are rules to 'gable', this can lead to a (temporary) ban on sales. At the moment there is no law in the Netherlands for online games with gambling elements in it, but laws are determined in the Dutch Senate.
What ignited all this is, of course, Star Wars Battlefront II and the pay to win schemes as well as the loot boxes you can purchase, without knowing what is inside them. Currently, Publisher Electronic Arts removed the possibility to spend real money from the new game Star Wars Battlefront II.
cryohellinc
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Senior Member
Posts: 2840
Joined: 2014-10-20
#5494596 Posted on: 11/22/2017 09:03 AM
fOrTy_7
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Posts: 344
Joined: 2005-06-18
#5494598 Posted on: 11/22/2017 09:07 AM
Thank you Dice for briging a doom (or at least a chance of it) to loot boxes.
After Battlefield 1 fiasco and now this you definitelly lost a client.
@Barry J: The article doesn't say anything about micro-transactions in general, it only mentions loot boxes. So micro-transactions in games like GTA V where you can buy 8 million of GTA$ for like 60€, for which you can only buy one or two premium in-game items is still possible, because 'you know what you're buying in advance'.
Personally, I think that sooner or later market (that means us gamers) will corrects this.
There were larger backlashes for smaller reasons, e.g. OpenVI ban. I think people will eventually get so pissed off over this, that there will be consequenses even for biggest publishers. Gamers just need to unite and hit them when it hurts, that is their wallets.
Thank you Dice for briging a doom (or at least a chance of it) to loot boxes.
After Battlefield 1 fiasco and now this you definitelly lost a client.
@Barry J: The article doesn't say anything about micro-transactions in general, it only mentions loot boxes. So micro-transactions in games like GTA V where you can buy 8 million of GTA$ for like 60€, for which you can only buy one or two premium in-game items is still possible, because 'you know what you're buying in advance'.
Personally, I think that sooner or later market (that means us gamers) will corrects this.
There were larger backlashes for smaller reasons, e.g. OpenVI ban. I think people will eventually get so pissed off over this, that there will be consequenses even for biggest publishers. Gamers just need to unite and hit them when it hurts, that is their wallets.
lucidus
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Senior Member
Posts: 11856
Joined: 2011-12-31
#5494605 Posted on: 11/22/2017 09:35 AM
lol ... I hope WB and EA get fucked royally.
lol ... I hope WB and EA get fucked royally.
ATOJAR
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Member
Posts: 45
Joined: 2007-03-10
#5494610 Posted on: 11/22/2017 10:02 AM
I wonder how this would work with the likes of FIFA points? I mean technically you know that your buying FIFA points, you know how many you are going to get for your money so technically this isn't gambling. You then you use them FIFA points to buy FIFA packs, these essentially are loot-boxes ... Right? As you dont know what you are going to get. But you can only buy the FIFA packs with FIFA points and you can only buy FIFA points with real money.
I mean once you have bought them say 15,000 FIFA points with real money you are then gambling with in-game currency and not real money but you are forced to buy FIFA points with real money in the first place.
I wonder how this would work with the likes of FIFA points? I mean technically you know that your buying FIFA points, you know how many you are going to get for your money so technically this isn't gambling. You then you use them FIFA points to buy FIFA packs, these essentially are loot-boxes ... Right? As you dont know what you are going to get. But you can only buy the FIFA packs with FIFA points and you can only buy FIFA points with real money.
I mean once you have bought them say 15,000 FIFA points with real money you are then gambling with in-game currency and not real money but you are forced to buy FIFA points with real money in the first place.
Stormyandcold
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Senior Member
Posts: 5259
Joined: 2003-09-15
#5494611 Posted on: 11/22/2017 10:14 AM
The way I see this working out is it'll all revert back to a shop system, where you know exactly what you want and only buy what you wanted. Then, the next "backlash" will be the cost of certain in-game items.
Now, what would be really cool (like on the level of ppi) is if they forced the companies to refund all monies that's been spent on loot box systems. Now that would send a shockwave through the industry.
The way I see this working out is it'll all revert back to a shop system, where you know exactly what you want and only buy what you wanted. Then, the next "backlash" will be the cost of certain in-game items.
Now, what would be really cool (like on the level of ppi) is if they forced the companies to refund all monies that's been spent on loot box systems. Now that would send a shockwave through the industry.
CK the Greek
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Posts: 1278
Joined: 2014-09-29
#5494613 Posted on: 11/22/2017 10:24 AM
At least BY LAW "banning" the idea for micro transactions without knowing what you get is the right step for gaming industry, yeah it IS a stop for future marketing from game developers/publishers. Ofc no one can stop the "pay for better stuff" when you know what you are paying for, though at least that they won't make it a "must" in the future so players vs players who pay for gettting better stuff won't be day vs night.
However..will this law be established worldwide or in few regions or even worst few countries..?
At least BY LAW "banning" the idea for micro transactions without knowing what you get is the right step for gaming industry, yeah it IS a stop for future marketing from game developers/publishers. Ofc no one can stop the "pay for better stuff" when you know what you are paying for, though at least that they won't make it a "must" in the future so players vs players who pay for gettting better stuff won't be day vs night.
However..will this law be established worldwide or in few regions or even worst few countries..?
AlmondMan
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Posts: 492
Joined: 2007-09-03
#5494616 Posted on: 11/22/2017 10:34 AM
Thank you Dice for briging a doom (or at least a chance of it) to loot boxes.
After Battlefield 1 fiasco and now this you definitelly lost a client.
Dice? You must mean EA. Most developers don't want to put stuff like this in their game that compromises their design or requires them to completely focus the entire design of the game around them.
Hopefully the EU will move to ban this practice of gambling in games. I don't even care if the only thing you can buy in a lootbox is a cosmetic, the pay2win stuff is a separate issue from lootbox gambling.
Thank you Dice for briging a doom (or at least a chance of it) to loot boxes.
After Battlefield 1 fiasco and now this you definitelly lost a client.
Dice? You must mean EA. Most developers don't want to put stuff like this in their game that compromises their design or requires them to completely focus the entire design of the game around them.
Hopefully the EU will move to ban this practice of gambling in games. I don't even care if the only thing you can buy in a lootbox is a cosmetic, the pay2win stuff is a separate issue from lootbox gambling.
evildave-
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#5494622 Posted on: 11/22/2017 11:08 AM
While i dislike microtransactions very much, i think regulation is not the right answer. People should just be smarter and do not use them or ignore games utilizing them altogether.
Regulators usually do not understand industry internals very well, ending up making life for developers harder. It can make legitimate use of lootboxes impossible, among other things.
While i dislike microtransactions very much, i think regulation is not the right answer. People should just be smarter and do not use them or ignore games utilizing them altogether.
Regulators usually do not understand industry internals very well, ending up making life for developers harder. It can make legitimate use of lootboxes impossible, among other things.
cryohellinc
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Joined: 2014-10-20
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Posts: 2840
Joined: 2014-10-20
#5494624 Posted on: 11/22/2017 11:17 AM
While i dislike microtransactions very much, i think regulation is not the right answer. People should just be smarter and do not use them or ignore games utilizing them altogether.
Regulators usually do not understand industry internals very well, ending up making life for developers harder. It can make legitimate use of lootboxes impossible, among other things.
Loot boxes are a dumb idea and should be removed altogether. There is no justification for this. Illness should be treated in relation to its severity. This problem is severe, thus should be cut out completely.
Personally I find all the micro transactions disgusting. We need to get back to old formula - you get what you pay for. A 100% game, any future content is an ADDITION to current content, and not blocked out / cut out content.
While i dislike microtransactions very much, i think regulation is not the right answer. People should just be smarter and do not use them or ignore games utilizing them altogether.
Regulators usually do not understand industry internals very well, ending up making life for developers harder. It can make legitimate use of lootboxes impossible, among other things.
Loot boxes are a dumb idea and should be removed altogether. There is no justification for this. Illness should be treated in relation to its severity. This problem is severe, thus should be cut out completely.
Personally I find all the micro transactions disgusting. We need to get back to old formula - you get what you pay for. A 100% game, any future content is an ADDITION to current content, and not blocked out / cut out content.
Texter
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#5494627 Posted on: 11/22/2017 11:39 AM
You'd think simply debating it's illegal at such a high level would be enough of a hint for publishers to abandon this practice.
You'd think simply debating it's illegal at such a high level would be enough of a hint for publishers to abandon this practice.
RooiKreef
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Posts: 383
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#5494629 Posted on: 11/22/2017 11:48 AM
Looks like time is running out for game developers like EA. It's about damn time!!!
Looks like time is running out for game developers like EA. It's about damn time!!!
Ricepudding
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Posts: 496
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#5494630 Posted on: 11/22/2017 11:55 AM
Should we thank EA and Dice for being so greedy they have now doomed that XD
Seriously this is a good thing, loot boxes are and always will be gambling. to say anything otherwise is a lie. Loot boxes have actually made me miss Season pass, at least then you knew what you was going to get... (and normally cost a lot less than loot boxes, some of them are like 25 boxes for £39.99) that's more than most full priced games let alone season passes...
Should we thank EA and Dice for being so greedy they have now doomed that XD
Seriously this is a good thing, loot boxes are and always will be gambling. to say anything otherwise is a lie. Loot boxes have actually made me miss Season pass, at least then you knew what you was going to get... (and normally cost a lot less than loot boxes, some of them are like 25 boxes for £39.99) that's more than most full priced games let alone season passes...
H83
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Posts: 2797
Joined: 2009-09-08
#5494638 Posted on: 11/22/2017 12:37 PM
I wonder how this would work with the likes of FIFA points? I mean technically you know that your buying FIFA points, you know how many you are going to get for your money so technically this isn't gambling. You then you use them FIFA points to buy FIFA packs, these essentially are loot-boxes ... Right? As you dont know what you are going to get. But you can only buy the FIFA packs with FIFA points and you can only buy FIFA points with real money.
I mean once you have bought them say 15,000 FIFA points with real money you are then gambling with in-game currency and not real money but you are forced to buy FIFA points with real money in the first place.
That´s a very nice point you made! The same happens in PES18 that i´ve just bought. In some game modes, Master League and MyClub, we need to buy players to make better teams and win leagues and cups but we can´t buy them directly, instead we have to use scouts to narrow the search and then we are awarded a random player. In a certain way this is a good system because it prevents people from all having Messi and Ronaldo in their teams...
But the problem is that we can spend real money to buy PES coins and then use those to try to buy players but the buying system is random, so this is an indirect gambling system... Just like Fifa... How to deal with this kind of cases???
I wonder how this would work with the likes of FIFA points? I mean technically you know that your buying FIFA points, you know how many you are going to get for your money so technically this isn't gambling. You then you use them FIFA points to buy FIFA packs, these essentially are loot-boxes ... Right? As you dont know what you are going to get. But you can only buy the FIFA packs with FIFA points and you can only buy FIFA points with real money.
I mean once you have bought them say 15,000 FIFA points with real money you are then gambling with in-game currency and not real money but you are forced to buy FIFA points with real money in the first place.
That´s a very nice point you made! The same happens in PES18 that i´ve just bought. In some game modes, Master League and MyClub, we need to buy players to make better teams and win leagues and cups but we can´t buy them directly, instead we have to use scouts to narrow the search and then we are awarded a random player. In a certain way this is a good system because it prevents people from all having Messi and Ronaldo in their teams...
But the problem is that we can spend real money to buy PES coins and then use those to try to buy players but the buying system is random, so this is an indirect gambling system... Just like Fifa... How to deal with this kind of cases???
Backstabak
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Joined: 2015-11-13
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Posts: 495
Joined: 2015-11-13
#5494639 Posted on: 11/22/2017 12:43 PM
I wonder how this would work with the likes of FIFA points? I mean technically you know that your buying FIFA points, you know how many you are going to get for your money so technically this isn't gambling. You then you use them FIFA points to buy FIFA packs, these essentially are loot-boxes ... Right? As you dont know what you are going to get. But you can only buy the FIFA packs with FIFA points and you can only buy FIFA points with real money.
I mean once you have bought them say 15,000 FIFA points with real money you are then gambling with in-game currency and not real money but you are forced to buy FIFA points with real money in the first place.
Isn't this exactly the same as with casino chips ? You go to the casino, exchange your money for chips and then gamble with them.
While i dislike microtransactions very much, i think regulation is not the right answer. People should just be smarter and do not use them or ignore games utilizing them altogether.
Regulators usually do not understand industry internals very well, ending up making life for developers harder. It can make legitimate use of lootboxes impossible, among other things.
While the idea of people being smarter is great, it simply does not work. There was a similar trend 50 years ago about safety in electronic devices. Many thought that we can educated masses on how to safely use electronic devices. None of this ever worked like that, we now therefore have devices, where you cannot reach any internal parts with fingers, tounge or any other body part. You can also look into your microwave manual, where you"ll find a stern warning not to attempt to dry your pets in it.
I wonder how this would work with the likes of FIFA points? I mean technically you know that your buying FIFA points, you know how many you are going to get for your money so technically this isn't gambling. You then you use them FIFA points to buy FIFA packs, these essentially are loot-boxes ... Right? As you dont know what you are going to get. But you can only buy the FIFA packs with FIFA points and you can only buy FIFA points with real money.
I mean once you have bought them say 15,000 FIFA points with real money you are then gambling with in-game currency and not real money but you are forced to buy FIFA points with real money in the first place.
Isn't this exactly the same as with casino chips ? You go to the casino, exchange your money for chips and then gamble with them.
While i dislike microtransactions very much, i think regulation is not the right answer. People should just be smarter and do not use them or ignore games utilizing them altogether.
Regulators usually do not understand industry internals very well, ending up making life for developers harder. It can make legitimate use of lootboxes impossible, among other things.
While the idea of people being smarter is great, it simply does not work. There was a similar trend 50 years ago about safety in electronic devices. Many thought that we can educated masses on how to safely use electronic devices. None of this ever worked like that, we now therefore have devices, where you cannot reach any internal parts with fingers, tounge or any other body part. You can also look into your microwave manual, where you"ll find a stern warning not to attempt to dry your pets in it.
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I hope this happens not knowing what your purchasing in a game is a joke, I don't trust game publishers who are to money focused and don't see a problem with this type of system,
a law will stop games heading in this direction they should stick with DLC in purchased games as in adding more to the game for those who want it and not effecting those who don't.
If a game is Free then I am fine with pay to win and in game purchases to progress through the game.( I don't purchased this type of game to costly) but when you purchase a full priced game you have already given your money to play the game and should only pay more to do more.