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AMD will give consoles a Die-shrink first
As you guys probably know, console APUs have become big business for AMD. Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo are all using one. These are still based on a 28nm fabrication process. However TSMC is getting its 20nm fabrication node up and running.
Now everybody expected AMD to die-shrink their APUs for the PC market first, but it's the console SoCs that will be favored. As TPU reports today:
Unlike NVIDIA, which may use the new process to shrink its GPUs, or launch bigger chips based on its "Maxwell" architecture, AMD will treat its console SoCs with optical-shrinks to the new nodes first, so the company could immediately eke out better margins, as console gamers upgrade to Xbox One or the PlayStation 4. AMD's SoC for the Xbox One, could be the first in line for this optical shrink to 20 nm. This chip features a transistor count of 5 billion, and houses eight 64-bit x86 CPU cores, and a 768 SP GPU based on the Graphics CoreNext architecture; 48 MB of on-die cache, and a quad-channel DDR3 IMC. The chip also features an integrated core logic. AMD's chip for the PlayStation 4 features design inputs from Sony. The chip features the same CPU component, but a 1152 SP GPU, and a 256-bit wide GDDR5 memory interface, wired to 8 GB of memory that's virtualized for both system- and graphics-memory. The 20 nm shrinks of both chips are expected to lower not just manufacturing costs, but also step up energy-efficiency, which could then let Microsoft and Sony save additional costs on other components, such as power and cooling.
Via TPU and Expreview.
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IcE
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Posts: 10694
Joined: 2008-11-01
#4953712 Posted on: 11/07/2014 05:16 AM
Well, regarding these die-shrink "updates", I think they should make them more powerful. Look at the ios platform as an example with Beach Buggy Blitz/Racing; this game works the same across multiple generations of ipad, but, the game also has resolution and some graphics options.
There is no reason why this can't be implemented on consoles like the X1 and PS4. The feature that makes the most sense to add is obvious...resolution options. There doesn't need to be a lot of options like on PC at all. The game merely detects the model of console and a new resolution option is then made available. Things like fps need not change...simplifying the extra work needed. To simplify thing's even further, there need only be 2 resolution options; normal and full-hd.
Ofcourse, these consoles would need a relatively substantial upgrade to make this feasible and performance isn't going to be the same across all types of games.
That's because each generation of Ipad had better hardware. A die shrink doesn't automatically make the hardware faster. It just means you can get the same performance with less silicon. If anything, AMD is using their console chips to get their new fab process rolling at full speed for their next generation of PC graphics cards to benefit from. It will also ultimately cost less to manufacture the chips too.
Well, regarding these die-shrink "updates", I think they should make them more powerful. Look at the ios platform as an example with Beach Buggy Blitz/Racing; this game works the same across multiple generations of ipad, but, the game also has resolution and some graphics options.
There is no reason why this can't be implemented on consoles like the X1 and PS4. The feature that makes the most sense to add is obvious...resolution options. There doesn't need to be a lot of options like on PC at all. The game merely detects the model of console and a new resolution option is then made available. Things like fps need not change...simplifying the extra work needed. To simplify thing's even further, there need only be 2 resolution options; normal and full-hd.
Ofcourse, these consoles would need a relatively substantial upgrade to make this feasible and performance isn't going to be the same across all types of games.
That's because each generation of Ipad had better hardware. A die shrink doesn't automatically make the hardware faster. It just means you can get the same performance with less silicon. If anything, AMD is using their console chips to get their new fab process rolling at full speed for their next generation of PC graphics cards to benefit from. It will also ultimately cost less to manufacture the chips too.
Noisiv
Senior Member
Posts: 8192
Joined: 2010-11-16
Senior Member
Posts: 8192
Joined: 2010-11-16
#4953718 Posted on: 11/07/2014 05:35 AM
Well, regarding these die-shrink "updates", I think they should make them more powerful. Look at the ios platform as an example with Beach Buggy Blitz/Racing; this game works the same across multiple generations of ipad, but, the game also has resolution and some graphics options.
There is no reason why this can't be implemented on consoles like the X1 and PS4. The feature that makes the most sense to add is obvious...resolution options. There doesn't need to be a lot of options like on PC at all. The game merely detects the model of console and a new resolution option is then made available. Things like fps need not change...simplifying the extra work needed. To simplify thing's even further, there need only be 2 resolution options; normal and full-hd.
Ofcourse, these consoles would need a relatively substantial upgrade to make this feasible and performance isn't going to be the same across all types of games.
Even at TSMC's ideal case scenario, shrink will only bring you 30% bigger clocks t the same power envelope.
Which ideally would mean 30% more rendering power, equating to 30% pixel increase.
So you would get pathetic resolution increase 1280x720 -> 1459x820 .
Congrats you are now less than 1/3 on your way to fullHD, still more than 2/3 left to go.
And again this is HIGHLY idealistic shrink.
Well, regarding these die-shrink "updates", I think they should make them more powerful. Look at the ios platform as an example with Beach Buggy Blitz/Racing; this game works the same across multiple generations of ipad, but, the game also has resolution and some graphics options.
There is no reason why this can't be implemented on consoles like the X1 and PS4. The feature that makes the most sense to add is obvious...resolution options. There doesn't need to be a lot of options like on PC at all. The game merely detects the model of console and a new resolution option is then made available. Things like fps need not change...simplifying the extra work needed. To simplify thing's even further, there need only be 2 resolution options; normal and full-hd.
Ofcourse, these consoles would need a relatively substantial upgrade to make this feasible and performance isn't going to be the same across all types of games.
Even at TSMC's ideal case scenario, shrink will only bring you 30% bigger clocks t the same power envelope.
Which ideally would mean 30% more rendering power, equating to 30% pixel increase.
So you would get pathetic resolution increase 1280x720 -> 1459x820 .
Congrats you are now less than 1/3 on your way to fullHD, still more than 2/3 left to go.
And again this is HIGHLY idealistic shrink.
Loobyluggs
Senior Member
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Posts: 4950
Joined: 2008-09-07
#4953810 Posted on: 11/07/2014 11:25 AM
Not what I'm saying, sorry to have misled you unintentionally.
What I'm saying is they are pushing BS filler GFX which no one cares about, whilst gamers want games to have a resolution and frame rate which fits their $2000 teevee.
Style over substance.
It's a combination of marketing departments controlling publishers and therefore developers, trying to graphically out-do your competitor (if there should even be such a thing in the creative world) and all sorts of other stuff which have no place at all in games development. Especially ego.
X360 and PS3 had 'outdated graphics' for the last 8 years of their lifecycle, but somehow (sarcasm) managed to make billions of dollars a year in games revenue.
This is fact. It is indisputable. Only problem is, gamers get brainwashed into thinking graphics are king and that games should be more like movies which is total and utter rubbish. Well, it slightly backfired with the PS4 and Xboner, didn't it?
Everyone expected the following from this current generation of consoles:
1080P
60FPS
Quality Build
Quality Service
There isn't a person in these forums who expected them to release a 720P console, let alone a console which can do 1080P and 60FPS but because of BS reasons developers make graphics their focus (something no one cares about) and manufacturers make 720/30 a minimum requirement.
These consoles can deliver games at 1080P and 60FPS - the 'hit' to the eyes is meaningless and has no place in any logical construct when talking about creativity.
Analogy: If graphics were really important, then Microsoft would not have bought Minecraft for $2.5 billion
Irony: Company who says graphics are important over resolution and frame-rate buys a game which has zero graphics but very high resolution and frame-rate.
Looby is literally saying that game developers can improve all three simultaneously, which is impossible.
Not what I'm saying, sorry to have misled you unintentionally.
What I'm saying is they are pushing BS filler GFX which no one cares about, whilst gamers want games to have a resolution and frame rate which fits their $2000 teevee.
Style over substance.
It's a combination of marketing departments controlling publishers and therefore developers, trying to graphically out-do your competitor (if there should even be such a thing in the creative world) and all sorts of other stuff which have no place at all in games development. Especially ego.
X360 and PS3 had 'outdated graphics' for the last 8 years of their lifecycle, but somehow (sarcasm) managed to make billions of dollars a year in games revenue.
This is fact. It is indisputable. Only problem is, gamers get brainwashed into thinking graphics are king and that games should be more like movies which is total and utter rubbish. Well, it slightly backfired with the PS4 and Xboner, didn't it?
Everyone expected the following from this current generation of consoles:
1080P
60FPS
Quality Build
Quality Service
There isn't a person in these forums who expected them to release a 720P console, let alone a console which can do 1080P and 60FPS but because of BS reasons developers make graphics their focus (something no one cares about) and manufacturers make 720/30 a minimum requirement.
These consoles can deliver games at 1080P and 60FPS - the 'hit' to the eyes is meaningless and has no place in any logical construct when talking about creativity.
Analogy: If graphics were really important, then Microsoft would not have bought Minecraft for $2.5 billion
Irony: Company who says graphics are important over resolution and frame-rate buys a game which has zero graphics but very high resolution and frame-rate.
Andrew LB
Senior Member
Posts: 1238
Joined: 2012-05-22
Senior Member
Posts: 1238
Joined: 2012-05-22
#4953914 Posted on: 11/07/2014 02:18 PM
No they won't because those are likely for yield purposes so that the number of successful GPUs being manufactured is higher. Not all PS4's will have all 128 extra cores in a working state so unlcoking them would give benefits only to some and thus this will never be done. Chances are they were laser cut and couldn't be used anyway.
Maybe with this die shrink SONY can fully unlock all the stream processors on the PS4, while keeping heat to a minimum and maybe even increase the CPU speed like MS did for the Xbone, so it can run all games in Med/High settings in 1080p@60fps.
No they won't because those are likely for yield purposes so that the number of successful GPUs being manufactured is higher. Not all PS4's will have all 128 extra cores in a working state so unlcoking them would give benefits only to some and thus this will never be done. Chances are they were laser cut and couldn't be used anyway.
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Posts: 5837
Joined: 2003-09-15
Well, regarding these die-shrink "updates", I think they should make them more powerful. Look at the ios platform as an example with Beach Buggy Blitz/Racing; this game works the same across multiple generations of ipad, but, the game also has resolution and some graphics options.
There is no reason why this can't be implemented on consoles like the X1 and PS4. The feature that makes the most sense to add is obvious...resolution options. There doesn't need to be a lot of options like on PC at all. The game merely detects the model of console and a new resolution option is then made available. Things like fps need not change...simplifying the extra work needed. To simplify thing's even further, there need only be 2 resolution options; normal and full-hd.
Ofcourse, these consoles would need a relatively substantial upgrade to make this feasible and performance isn't going to be the same across all types of games.