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Guru3D.com » News » AMD Could Do DLSS Alternative with Radeon VII through DirectML API

AMD Could Do DLSS Alternative with Radeon VII through DirectML API

by Hilbert Hagedoorn on: 01/17/2019 11:05 AM | source: pcgameshardware | 128 comment(s)
AMD Could Do DLSS Alternative with Radeon VII through DirectML API

There is an interesting development, as you know the GeForce RTX graphics cards have tensor cores, dedicated cores for optimizing and accelerating anything AI and Deep Learning. A spawn from that technology for gaming is DLSS, which NVIDIA is marketing strongly. With the October 2018 update for Windows 10, Microsoft has released the DirectML API for DirectX 12. 

ML stands for Machine Learning - and makes it possible to run trained neural networks on any DX12 graphics card. Basically, the Deep Learning optimization or algorithm if you will, becomes a shader that can be run over the traditional shader engine, without a need for tensor cores. In an interview with AMD they mention that the team is working on this and it seems, Radeon VII seems very well suited for the new API. Japanese website 4gamer.net spoke with AMD marketing manager Adam Kozak, AMD is currently testing DirectML with Radeon VII and was positively impressed by the results, and that is exciting news for AMD offering them an AI/DL alternative.

While AMD is testing this on Radeon VII, logic obviously dictates that it would work well on Radeon RX Vega 64 and Radeon RX Vega 56 as well. This allows, for example, an alternative implementation to Nvidia's DLSS. 

Only 1+1=2

Of course, should this become an actual supported thing, then it can't be addressed AMD alone, this question remains: will game developers actually implement, experiment and integrate support for DX ML into games?

It also has to be said, it works reversed, DirectML could also make use of Nvidia's Tensor cores, certainly giving them an advantage. As the Radeon card would see a performance hit, whereas the RTX cards can simply offload the algorithm towards its Tensor cores. Time will tell, but this certainly is an interesting development as long as your graphics card is powerful enough, of course.

 



AMD Could Do DLSS Alternative with Radeon VII through DirectML API




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BlackZero
Senior Member



Posts: 8878
Joined: 2007-06-17

#5628726 Posted on: 01/17/2019 01:19 PM
problem with this tech is you have to bake it so procedurally generated graphics may not work.
I do think its a step backwards not forwards because of its limitations .

Similar to how A.I. centric game engines need set boundaries, that would be a limitation of hardware and not necessarily ray tracing implementations. Of course, procedurally generated content could it self contain specific boundaries, negating any disadvantages.

However, I do think, it could then become a question of artistic style vs bland environments.

fantaskarsef
Senior Member



Posts: 14278
Joined: 2014-07-21

#5628727 Posted on: 01/17/2019 01:19 PM
Which Vega (both 10 & 20) has that horsepower to do DirectML it via GPGPU as per AMD when asked about this. Also on the same answer AMD said that RVII is 62-65% faster than the RTX2080 in Luxmark ray tracing benchmark, Which is using OpenCL based ray tracing. (Vega 64 is also 3% faster than RTX2080 on this benchmark).


None of what you wrote is wrong. Only that it's not what it's about... especially not in this thread. We're talking about AI algorythm execution, DLSS has nothing to do with ray tracing, so your benchmark shows little in terms of comparable performance or anything in general about DLSS.
Also, why should any 2080 user run OpenCL ray tracing in games when they have DXR / RTX... that simply doesn't make any sense as of now. Sure, if at some point OpenCL RT is the thing, Nvidia will have a problem (as it has happened with some things in the past between red and green too), but right now, this benchmark is useless besides being able to brag about it, or in professional environments (where I guess it will be more of a matchup between Nvidia's and AMD's professional cards, in which you'd have to compare Vega2's daddy to a Titan, not the 2080).
Like @dr_rus said, AMD has to "invent" a way to do DLSS first, this probably takes quite some time, then hast to work together with the game devs to test it, then hast the gamedevs to submit their game, they push it through it's AI training parcours on the big computers, then AMD is where Nvidia says they're right now. So... like I said, right now, nice to know, but this news article probably only shows it's significance in half a year from now or later.

Wrinkly
Member



Posts: 73
Joined: 2015-03-25

#5628741 Posted on: 01/17/2019 02:03 PM
DLSS is free. Turing still has an advantage because of the tensors, which DirectML can leverage.


DLSS is free, Tensor cores however are not :p

xrodney
Senior Member



Posts: 362
Joined: 2015-06-18

#5628758 Posted on: 01/17/2019 03:09 PM
DLSS is free. Turing still has an advantage because of the tensors, which DirectML can leverage.

That's questionable... because when not using DLSS or RTX, RT cores are worthless but at same time taking A LOT of space on die.
There are not many ways to test DLSS so far but from what GN tested in FF XV, to be honest DLSS looked considerably worse than native 4k with TAA.

Denial
Senior Member



Posts: 14038
Joined: 2004-05-16

#5628776 Posted on: 01/17/2019 03:25 PM
That's questionable... because when not using DLSS or RTX, RT cores are worthless but at same time taking A LOT of space on die.
There are not many ways to test DLSS so far but from what GN tested in FF XV, to be honest DLSS looked considerably worse than native 4k with TAA.

I keep seeing this idea that RT/Tensor cores take "a lot of space up" but I really don't see any evidence of that at all. Turing has the same CUDA/mm2 as GP100 but it does it with Tensor, RT, double the cache and twice as many dispatch units and a process that's the same density. They take up space sure - they definitely don't take up "a lot of space". Regardless, I'm responding to people comparing this to Freesync vs Gsync - RPM has a fixed die cost as well that's been idle with the exception of Farcry 5 - so looking at it your way they both cost die space for a feature used in relatively little titles.

As far as quality, DLSS utilizes an autoencoder which is basically the same implementation that Microsoft demonstrated for their upscaler on DirectML early last year and will most likely be the same that AMD uses. You can tweak the weights, train longer, etc to improve quality. With only one example on a game that seems to be somewhat abandoned it's hard to say what DLSS or any AI upscaler will be like.

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